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The Bard's Tale series[BT1 Remaster] 1000+ damage in BT1(15 posts)(15 posts)
(15 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 01, 2019
I am playing the Bard's Tale 1 remaster and I have noticed that my level 16 Monk is doing absurd (by BT1 standards) amounts of damage. I noticed, after singing the attack boosting song, that she would deal around 1300 or 1700 damage (the song seems to stack, but with a limit of 2 or 3 castings); when I checked her stats, her damage range was something along the lines of 120 to 720, and she was routinely hitting for over 300. For anyone familiar with BT1, enemy HP is rather low. (I'm on the top floor of the third dungeon, and enemies are still dying to a single cast of Mind Blade, which does *maximum* 40 damage.)

So, we have a situation where my monk can deal tons of damage, over 1,000 when boosted by song, but no enemy has more than 255 HP, which is a littlie ridiculous. The only reason this *doesn't* break game balance is that enemies tend to appear in groups and my Monk can only kill one of them at a time.

(Incidentally, in BT2, late game enemies can actually survive this level of damage; that's part of the reason Monks are so poor in classic BT2; it doesn't help that, in the C64 version, there's an accuracy overflow bug that causes characters with L+ AC (which is unavoidable for Monks after a certain level) to be unable to hit anything from mid-game onward.)

This sort of absurdity is what happens when you take content balanced for one game and put it in another. There's a reason Mind Blade does more damage in classic BT2 than in classic BT1 (I don't know how it is in BT2 remaster yet), and a good reason they didn't give you Rimefang in BT1 (~125 damage to all enemies would be pretty close to being an "I Win" button).

By the way, there's another change that makes that one Berserker fight much easier; the game actually tracks damage dealt to enemies. In the original, every attack on an enemy behaved like an instant death attack; either it killed or did no damage. (Or at least something along those lines.) As a result, after a few mind blades, the surviving enemies don't have any increased chance of dying from more spells. In the remaster, however, 2 Mind Blades (with good enough saving throws so that the enemies never save) will generally kill all but a single digit number of them.

(I could also add that 3 mages is overkill in BT1; 2 are plenty. In any case, in BT3 you can get a third mage who doesn't share any spells (except the 3 miscellaneous spells) with your other casters.)
Posted March 02, 2019
My BT2 my Monk can do > 2800 in damages, and frequently does over 2k damage...;) (Remastered)
Posted March 02, 2019
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waltc: My BT2 my Monk can do > 2800 in damages, and frequently does over 2k damage...;) (Remastered)
That seems reasonable for BT2, even though it is much more damage than was possible in the original version (it's easy to reach this point in BT3, and I believe the remaster now uses the BT3 tables, which are a bit absurd from a BT1 perspective). To be honest, the original BT2 Monk was not that good, so I think it needed this boost; it's just that the boost is a bit ridiculous in BT1 where enemy HP doesn't exceed 255.

The scary thing is that, near the end of BT2, there are actually enemies that can survive this amount of damage. Have you ever had your monk attack attack, deal 4 digit damage, and *not* kill the enemy that was being attacked?

(I remember the Magic-eaters from the bottom of the second dungeon; even after killing the boss and getting the level boost, my monk would attack a magic-eater for over 2k damage and *not* kill it. Then I got one to join and its HP appeared as 9999 (8-bit) or *** (16-bit) until it got low enough to fit in 4 (8-bit) or 3 (16-bit) digits.)

(Of course, there's another memory I have: In the DOS version of BT3, I got a Chronomancer to the level where their SP (IIRC) didn't fit in 3 digits, and the game would just display stars there. Why did they reduce the display to 3 digits in that version anyway? Then again, there's so much wrong with that version anyway.)

By the way, if you want to do even more damage, try singing Rhyme of Duotime for extra attacks, another bard song for extra damage per attacks, and maybe even consider casting the Dreamspell (if you have it). In classic BT3, after casting DIVA I remember my Monk doing well over 4k damage per attack. (I think I once stacked Rhyme of Duotime enough to reach 5 digit damage; I am wondering if damage overflow is possible, and if you can deal negative damage like I once experienced in DOS BT1.)
Posted March 04, 2019
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dtgreene: I am playing the Bard's Tale 1 remaster and I have noticed that my level 16 Monk is doing absurd (by BT1 standards) amounts of damage. I noticed, after singing the attack boosting song, that she would deal around 1300 or 1700 damage (the song seems to stack, but with a limit of 2 or 3 castings); when I checked her stats, her damage range was something along the lines of 120 to 720, and she was routinely hitting for over 300. For anyone familiar with BT1, enemy HP is rather low. (I'm on the top floor of the third dungeon, and enemies are still dying to a single cast of Mind Blade, which does *maximum* 40 damage.)

So, we have a situation where my monk can deal tons of damage, over 1,000 when boosted by song, but no enemy has more than 255 HP, which is a littlie ridiculous. The only reason this *doesn't* break game balance is that enemies tend to appear in groups and my Monk can only kill one of them at a time.

(Incidentally, in BT2, late game enemies can actually survive this level of damage; that's part of the reason Monks are so poor in classic BT2; it doesn't help that, in the C64 version, there's an accuracy overflow bug that causes characters with L+ AC (which is unavoidable for Monks after a certain level) to be unable to hit anything from mid-game onward.)

This sort of absurdity is what happens when you take content balanced for one game and put it in another. There's a reason Mind Blade does more damage in classic BT2 than in classic BT1 (I don't know how it is in BT2 remaster yet), and a good reason they didn't give you Rimefang in BT1 (~125 damage to all enemies would be pretty close to being an "I Win" button).

By the way, there's another change that makes that one Berserker fight much easier; the game actually tracks damage dealt to enemies. In the original, every attack on an enemy behaved like an instant death attack; either it killed or did no damage. (Or at least something along those lines.) As a result, after a few mind blades, the surviving enemies don't have any increased chance of dying from more spells. In the remaster, however, 2 Mind Blades (with good enough saving throws so that the enemies never save) will generally kill all but a single digit number of them.

(I could also add that 3 mages is overkill in BT1; 2 are plenty. In any case, in BT3 you can get a third mage who doesn't share any spells (except the 3 miscellaneous spells) with your other casters.)
I was reading the changelist on the Steam forum , and noticed this under general changes/fixes:
- Monks now use roll table from Thief of Fate- goes up to 2048 max damage
Posted March 04, 2019
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boleje: I was reading the changelist on the Steam forum , and noticed this under general changes/fixes:
- Monks now use roll table from Thief of Fate- goes up to 2048 max damage
I haven't played this version of BT3 yet (think I may start with a new party soon), but I remember, in classic versions, actually doing *more* than 2048 damage with a Monk.

By the way, if you think these damage amounts aren't enough, and you are playing BT2 and BT3 and not using the legacy bard song option (or are playing BT1 and are willing to hack your save, as I did), here is a way to get the damage to go way up.
* Go to an advanced area of the game.
* Play Rhyme of Duotime once. The first time you play it, the number of extra attacks you get is based on the area you're in; harder dungeons give a bigger boost. (This boost can be huge for Rogues using the Thieves Dagger or other BT3 Rogue weapons which (with the exception of the Heartseeker) do enormous damage per hit.) Each additional instance only adds one extra attack (which is how it worked in the original).
* Play Falkentyne's Fury a few times. This song is *really* powerful in the remaster (note that it gives a bigger boost than The Melee March), and it does stack if you play it multiple times.
* Attack, and watch as your attacks do huge damage.

Note that I don't know when it would be best to work the Dreamspell or DIVA into this strategy for maximum damage boost. (Again, in BT3 I remember a Monk doing something like 4.5k or so damage with DIVA alone.)
Posted March 05, 2019
In the remaster, too, it's easy to stack effects from various Bard songs, during combat...of course, have the song you like playing always, then select the one you want to stack on top during combat--that's fun--but usually I am too busy using the 10 gadzillion Flame Flutes and Flame Horns I've been picking up lately in Dargoth's Tower (BT2)!

Lately, in the remaster BT2, they are futzing around with equipable items as to which of your party can wear them--items that party members have been wearing for awhile are suddenly, in patch 3.23/4, no longer eligible for those party members! Get this--the items do not de-equip themselves--but are usable until you remove them--at which point they cannot be worn again. Elf Cloak for the Paladin is one example--looks like for the Monk they've taken Adamant Bracers off of the compatible list--and several more items, for various characters. in 3.21, my Arch Mages could wear Adamant Bracers, but in 3.23 they could not, but now in 3.24 that's been corrected and they can wear them again. I have no idea why they would mess with this stuff--probably trying to affect the "balance" or the remaster in some subtle fashion. Seems odd...!
Posted March 05, 2019
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waltc: In the remaster, too, it's easy to stack effects from various Bard songs, during combat...of course, have the song you like playing always, then select the one you want to stack on top during combat--that's fun--but usually I am too busy using the 10 gadzillion Flame Flutes and Flame Horns I've been picking up lately in Dargoth's Tower (BT2)!

Lately, in the remaster BT2, they are futzing around with equipable items as to which of your party can wear them--items that party members have been wearing for awhile are suddenly, in patch 3.23/4, no longer eligible for those party members! Get this--the items do not de-equip themselves--but are usable until you remove them--at which point they cannot be worn again. Elf Cloak for the Paladin is one example--looks like for the Monk they've taken Adamant Bracers off of the compatible list--and several more items, for various characters. in 3.21, my Arch Mages could wear Adamant Bracers, but in 3.23 they could not, but now in 3.24 that's been corrected and they can wear them again. I have no idea why they would mess with this stuff--probably trying to affect the "balance" or the remaster in some subtle fashion. Seems odd...!
Flame Flutes/Horns are too weak to be of any use later in the game. When enemies have thousands of HP, I would rather just have my bard just sing Spellsong (or, once I get it in BT3, Kiel's Overture) every round; the damage increase is much better. (Kiel's Overture actually maks those Flame Flutes/Horns you've been using obsolete; why spend an item charge to do a measly 100 (average) damage to a group when you could use a bard song to do 375 damage to all enemies, with the added advantage of better range? At this point, you'd need something like a Deathhorn for it to be worth using a breath attack over singing.)

By the way, Spellsong *stacks*; in my hacked BT1 save, I got Kiel's Overture to deal over 2,000 damage to enemies in melee range. Ouch! (That's NUKE level damage, by the way; yes, there is a spell with that code.) (One other observation: Unlike other bard songs, Kiel's Overture doesn't play its sound during battles; perhaps it's because it's the only song you play *at* the enemies.)

As for equipment changes, they changed between games in the classic trilogy. In BT3, the Elf Cloak and Bracers were more restricted than in previous games. In some cases, you could still keep equipped items after transfer (and, in some cases, even unequip and reequip them as long as you don't trade them away or change classes), though I believe this was only possible for the BT1 -> BT2 transfer. One example is that, at least in the Apple 2gs version of Bard's Tale 2, you could transfer a Specter Snare using Wizard and get a BT2 character who could cast spells and critically hit; the lack of Archmage spells wasn't an issue because you didn't need to be an Archmage to cast the Dreamspell back then (it was a level 7 Sorcerer spell), though an Archmage was still needed to beat the game.
Posted March 06, 2019
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waltc: My BT2 my Monk can do > 2800 in damages, and frequently does over 2k damage...;) (Remastered)
In BT3, in the town in Arboria (which appears to use the Gelidia drop list for some reason), with one each of that Fury song from BT1 and Rhyme of Duotime, my Monk can do over 9,000 damage. (I haven't broken 10,000, but one more bard song would do it.)

I still don't yet have DIVA; we'll see how much damage can be dealt with that spell added into the mix.

Who needs critical hits when you can deal upper 4 digit, or perhaps even 5 digit, damage in one attack?

(Of course, in BT1 255 damage is enough for anyone, which is part of the reason Monks are really good in that game. It's BT2 (classic versions, maybe remaster with Misc. Game Differences?) where they suck.)
Posted March 12, 2019
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waltc: My BT2 my Monk can do > 2800 in damages, and frequently does over 2k damage...;) (Remastered)
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dtgreene: In BT3, in the town in Arboria (which appears to use the Gelidia drop list for some reason), with one each of that Fury song from BT1 and Rhyme of Duotime, my Monk can do over 9,000 damage. (I haven't broken 10,000, but one more bard song would do it.)

I still don't yet have DIVA; we'll see how much damage can be dealt with that spell added into the mix.

Who needs critical hits when you can deal upper 4 digit, or perhaps even 5 digit, damage in one attack?

(Of course, in BT1 255 damage is enough for anyone, which is part of the reason Monks are really good in that game. It's BT2 (classic versions, maybe remaster with Misc. Game Differences?) where they suck.)
One thing I noticed in the remasters is that Spellsong--before they nerfed it, then corrected the nerf (I think), also affected the output of all magical items, too, not just the cast spells--output of flame horns and flame flutes went way up--generally doubled, roughly. In addition, the original remastered Spellsong also cut the damage the party received via magical means in *half*--Like you, I kept the Spellsong running...;) I haven't really looked at it closely since the nerf and subsequent fix--so I don't know if they have fully restored it to what it was in 2.08 BT2...

I don't understand why they have reduced the descriptive text of Spellsong as they have--wish they'd fix that to reflect accurately what it does. Of course, I'd rather they just left it alone as it was in 2.08--very powerful offensive and defensive Bard Song...!
Post edited March 12, 2019 by waltc
Posted March 13, 2019
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waltc: One thing I noticed in the remasters is that Spellsong--before they nerfed it, then corrected the nerf (I think), also affected the output of all magical items, too, not just the cast spells--output of flame horns and flame flutes went way up--generally doubled, roughly. In addition, the original remastered Spellsong also cut the damage the party received via magical means in *half*--Like you, I kept the Spellsong running...;) I haven't really looked at it closely since the nerf and subsequent fix--so I don't know if they have fully restored it to what it was in 2.08 BT2...

I don't understand why they have reduced the descriptive text of Spellsong as they have--wish they'd fix that to reflect accurately what it does. Of course, I'd rather they just left it alone as it was in 2.08--very powerful offensive and defensive Bard Song...!
The current behavior is that it's effect diminishes with range. At 10' range, your spells and magic items will do double damage (so my BT3 mages can deal over 4,000 damage with NUKE), but at longer range the effect is greatly reduced. And yes, it does affect magic items and, as I mentioned before, Kiel's Overture.

By the way, Falkentyne's Fury seems to stack up to 3 times, and it appears that Melee March (which seems to provide only half the bonus) is counted in that limit (so 6 Melee Marches if you don't play FF).

One other criticism: Having Spellsong cut spell damage in half feels like it devalues Minstrel Shield, which is the final bard song that you learn in BT3, as you don't get it until you reach the point where you can launch nukes at the enemies. At this point, I don't feel the need for the song (but I haven't reached Malefia yet), and have just been running Spellsong outside of battle and Kiel's Overture during battle. (Being able to hit 90' away for free is *really* nice; if I don't feel like nuking, I can combine that with Trebuchet spells from my Geomancer to take down enemies that like to keep their distance.) (In the original BT3, in the late game I would run Minstrel Shield outside of battle and Kiel's Overture during battle.)
Posted March 13, 2019
Some more updates, having reached Malefia:

In Malefia, the combination Fury + Rhyme + DIVA leads to my monk dealing 18k damage; I'm not sure if anything can survive that. Given the amount of HP enemies can have at that point, I think this might not be overkill if you have a monk in your party at this point.

Spellsong + NUKE can deal over 4,000 damage, but I have seen enemies in Malefia survive two casts. Maybe it's time to start stacking Spellsongs instead of using Keil's Overture with the bard?

Also, there's at least one high HP enemy that's immune to petrification in the remaster.

One annoyance: DIVA doesn't increase weapon or spell accuracy in the remaster the way it did in the remaster. (I reported the spell accuracy issue in the bug thread IIRC; the weapon accuracy issue will be going there if it's not fixed in the 3.25 update.)
Posted March 13, 2019
Bit of an update:

Against some Tarjan's Bulls (actually a lot because I let them repeatedly call for help), I stacked multiple Spellsongs, and I caught a nuke doing about 11.7k damage (which is actually on the low end) and *not* kill the enemy.

So, I have finally done over 10k damage to an enemy *without* killing it, but not in the way I expected.

That should tell you something about the final area of the game. Malefia enemies have a *lot* of HP (exceptions apply, namely those who can appear in double digit numbers). So, if you prefer to blast them, make sure you have a good supply of Harmonic Gems (or similar), SP cost reducing items, and be ready to cast a *lot* of nukes.

(Incidentally, some enemies near the end of Bard's Tale *2* often have enough HP to survive an unboosted monk or nuke (if you somehow hack it in), at least based on my memory of the DOS version.)
Posted March 23, 2019
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waltc: Lately, in the remaster BT2, they are futzing around with equipable items as to which of your party can wear them--items that party members have been wearing for awhile are suddenly, in patch 3.23/4, no longer eligible for those party members! Get this--the items do not de-equip themselves--but are usable until you remove them--at which point they cannot be worn again. Elf Cloak for the Paladin is one example--looks like for the Monk they've taken Adamant Bracers off of the compatible list--and several more items, for various characters. in 3.21, my Arch Mages could wear Adamant Bracers, but in 3.23 they could not, but now in 3.24 that's been corrected and they can wear them again. I have no idea why they would mess with this stuff--probably trying to affect the "balance" or the remaster in some subtle fashion. Seems odd...!
The remaster's balance is a little odd in spots. For example:
* Prime Summoning is level 2, which puts it on the same level as Lesser Summoning.
* Demon Strike is level 7 (like in classic BT3), but it's the BT1 version, making it useless as you have Wacum's Wizard War at that point.
* I used a Dragon Figurine in BT1, and ended up with a Blast Dragon with somethin like 783 hit points; that's absurd by BT1 standards. (I still prefer the Soul Sucker I spellbound, as that monster will reliably use its powerful breath attack on a randomly chosen enemy group within 30'.)

Anyway, I was able to observe a similar effect without a version update. I gave a Wizard a Death Dagger (I found 2 of them in one session), equipped her with it, and then changed her into a Conjurer. (Death Dagger is one of the weapons that's usable by advanced spellcasters (Wizard or greater) but not basic ones.) She still had the weapon equipped, but once unequipped, she can't re-requip it.

Incidentally, with Wizards being able to use the Death Dagger (or, in classic BT1 versions, the Spectre Snare), the high XP requirements of Wizards at high levels in some versions actually make some sense; we have a character who has an instant-death physical attack and can cast powerful spells; that capability can only be matched by the BT3 Geomancer. (Note that some versions includes the BT1 remaster if legacy XP requirements are enabled, but does not include the BT2 remaster regardless of settings.)

In the Apple 2gs version of 2, I noticed some slightly different behavior with transferred characters; a Wizard who's transferred to BT2 can still equip any Spectre Snare carried at the time of the transfer, even after unequipping it, as long as it isn't traded and the character's class isn't changed; this makes Wizard a viable endgame class for one spellcaster (the Dreamspell also helps, though you do still need an Archmage to complete the game).
Posted March 23, 2019
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dtgreene: Incidentally, with Wizards being able to use the Death Dagger (or, in classic BT1 versions, the Spectre Snare), the high XP requirements of Wizards at high levels in some versions actually make some sense; we have a character who has an instant-death physical attack and can cast powerful spells; that capability can only be matched by the BT3 Geomancer. (Note that some versions includes the BT1 remaster if legacy XP requirements are enabled, but does not include the BT2 remaster regardless of settings.)
This works in transferring characters between games as well, as I have an Archmage in BT3 that's equipped with a Dragonshield. So long as you don't uneqip the item, you can keep it on between games, even if your class suddenly can't use it for rebalancing purposes.
Posted March 23, 2019
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dtgreene: Incidentally, with Wizards being able to use the Death Dagger (or, in classic BT1 versions, the Spectre Snare), the high XP requirements of Wizards at high levels in some versions actually make some sense; we have a character who has an instant-death physical attack and can cast powerful spells; that capability can only be matched by the BT3 Geomancer. (Note that some versions includes the BT1 remaster if legacy XP requirements are enabled, but does not include the BT2 remaster regardless of settings.)
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sambrookjm: This works in transferring characters between games as well, as I have an Archmage in BT3 that's equipped with a Dragonshield. So long as you don't uneqip the item, you can keep it on between games, even if your class suddenly can't use it for rebalancing purposes.
Too bad there's no way (outside of hacking the remaster) to have that Archmage use the Spectre Snare, as it doesn't exist in classic versions of BT3 (it will disappear if you try to transfer it), and Archmages can't use it at all in the remaster.

By the way, random fact: There is a game for the Apple 2 and Commodore 64 called Centauri Alliance, which can be described as "Bard's Tale in space" (it was even developed by Michael Cranford). That game allows you to import your Bard's Tale characters and they even come with much of their old equipment (though some things work differently; for instance, I believe the Fire Horn is a gun). The items that BT3 introduced do not transfer, though the Spectre Snare does, but it's now called the Spectre *Stare* and is supposed to cast the Centauri Alliance counterpart to SPBI (the reason I say *supposed* to is that there's a rather serious bug with spellcasting items in that game). It turns out, however, that if you import a character with the BT3 item that has the same item index as the Spectre Snare (that is, the Titan Shield), it will appear as the Spectre Stare in Centauri Alliance.

Anyway, I have beaten the BT1 remaster, and have looked at transferring characters, and the Death Dagger does indeed transfer (assuming I don't do a Full Reset). There are other quirks of the transfer routine, al least one of which I would actually classify as a bug, so I think I'll mention them in the bug topic.
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The Bard's Tale series[BT1 Remaster] 1000+ damage in BT1(15 posts)(15 posts)
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