For small companies I agree but most time people not buying one game they pirated and didn't like usually pirated a big name title to begin with. Even a good number of pirates know not to rip off the little guy. As such, if one game is buggy and another isn't and a pirate pirates two games deletes 1 and keeps 1 and buys that one game then it's capitalism at work, plain and simple. Just with the legally bad aspect tacked on of pirating to begin with.

And btw can you prove a good number of pirates DON'T try and then buy? Hmm?

Again, what this should be telling publishers is "Stop releasing buggy crap". If they lose sales because people who "obtain" an illicit copy of the vanilla version find a buggy mess, and people who bought it on release tell all their friends not to bother, then it means they didn't do their job properly.

They can start by getting over their obsession with Christmas. Admittedly, this seems to have gotten slightly better in recent years, but it's still too much. If the publisher insists that a game should be out by Christmas, despite the fact that the game isn't really polished yet, in order to facilitate sales as gifts, then a couple of things are likely to occur.

1) They only get a small piece of those sales, because all the other publishers are also pushing out new games for Christmas.

2) The game will likely be buggy, unbalanced, etc.

3) All the people who did get a copy for Christmas tell all their friends that the game sucks.

And finally 4) Come February, everyone have played the games they got for Christmas, and are looking for something new and interesting, but can't find anything, because all the wonderful new games that ought to have been published around that time, have been shoveled out the door as buggy messes in time for Christmas.

Yes, I agree, that is how things should be. Isn't how they are.

And again, something like TW2: For most of us, that was largely bug-free. For a few, it was unplayable. You can't really fix that without incredibly expensive beta testing.
Can you "prove a good number of pirates" actually buy things?

And look at how Project Zomboid got hit. Pirates used their update servers and cost them a good chunk of money (since they use amazon's cloud). So no, the indies are not "protected".

(Neither is GoG, by the way)

The concept of the "ethical pirate" is one that is largely made up, and is rapidly made clear to be false once they get what they want. People used abandonware because they couldn't buy older games. GoG came around, many of the abandonware sites refuse to support GoG because "they are charging for the compatibility work we did" or "they don't legally have the right, even though they do!".
Or, certain other torrent sites (that have the word "Gamer" in their names :p) used to be split with one sister-site for older games, one for newer games. The older site said "We won't let you upload GoG installers. If you want the game, get the non-GoG version". So the younger site then allowed GoG installers to be uploaded.


Also rager, where are you getting these "most of the time" statistics? I have friends who pirated Minecraft, hated it, and never bought it. And there are probably countless people who pirate 4x games and indie simulators, find it too hard, and never buy it. They'll see "oh, that looks so awesome, I gotta try that", then realize it took that person three years to make a youtube video.

No, but it does happen and more often likely than you seem to think.

Also I said people will pirate and buy the games they liked and deleted the others. I wasn't talking about pirates paying for/buying games they didn't like....which of course not many if any do. And why should they buy a piece of shit game they tested for a bit and then deleted if they have limited income? Because it's the law? To pirates(and those testing cars even not stealing but testing at a dealership for a test before buy comparison) buying something that doesn't run right for them upon testing or is crap isn't a smart thing to do or a sane thing to do....also this isn't as clear cut as you may think.

It seems the only knowledge you have of pirates seems to be what the industry has told you and what you're led to believe, which is not always how things are.

And now I recall why I mostly stick to the actual gaming related forums.

Look, it is great to work for change. We all hate publishers, they are evil. But we also like developers. And there has to be a middle ground. Sometimes, it is worth plopping down some cash to support a developer, even if the game has DRM or a few bugs (the balance between bad and support is obviously up to you).
It is great to "make a statement", but not so great if that statement results in one of the good dev teams getting poo-canned.

And why should they buy a game they have already played (and probably beaten), especially if they are on a budget. Because its the law?

And you know what the dealership test drive equates to? A demo.

Well, excuse me for having an opinion. I haven't stooped to name-calling or anything, but if you think my statements are offensive, I apologize.

That said, then yes, sometimes in a specific situation, I might do as you say, and buy a game just to support a developer I like. But honestly, I'm much more likely to do that with an indie developer, and highly unlikely to do it with any of the AAA developers around today. There are several now-defunct AAA developers I wish were still around, but I can't think of any of the current bunch I'll miss terribly once they're gone. Well, Blizzard, but I'll miss them for what they once were, not for what they are today.

No, just referring to everyone immediately trying to put things into one of the known "black" cases, rather than acknowledging the shades of grey.

You prefer to support indies. I think most people do. But, imagine if an indie developer got a good publisher (or we are talking about something like the guys behind Uplink/Darwinia, who are just confusing to classify). That starts to draw even more questions of how much of a pass they get for making a game you like.

Everyone has their own threshold for what they consider acceptable bug-wise. If you are a 0-day buyer, you are at your own risk. But again, using stuff like TW2 which had some pretty big bugs at release, but nothing gamebreaking (for most people). If someone does the "try before you buy", they may decide to wait until it is 30 bucks or less, even if the bug gets fixed a day after they delete the ISO. Does that change the quality of the game? No. It just means the devs didn't have enough funds to buy a system configured like the tryer.

And, like I said, this is not even taking into account people who prefer to buy games used or on sale/at a later date.

As a few anecdotal arguments
I'll be perfectly honest: I pirated Modern Warfare 2 when it came out because I wanted to see the No Russian level (as pointless as expected, and I skip it on all subsequent playthroughs). And as much as I enjoyed Modern Warfare 1, I didn't see a reason to buy it until a few years later when it was on sale on Steam for 15 bucks or so.
Was that a fair lack of buying? Arguable.
I did the same with SC:Conviction (mostly to look at how UbiDRM worked, not so much for the game itself, which I had already decided to wait for a 30 or less on. Fun game, by the way. Not Splinter Cell, but fun).

Now imagine if I did that with Freelancer. Really great ride, but to this day I can't stand replaying the game. I don't regret what I paid for it, but I probably would never have bought it if I pirated and played it first.

I dunno, maybe I just feel this way because I like simulator games and "niche" games. The kind that actually do get real publishers financing them, rather than purely indie support. So, for me, I would prefer people buy the games they want. If you only have 50 euros, buy whatever you think is worth the most. Don't just steal them then justify a purchase of something else because you are "supporting the industry".

Thing is so is what I do....albeit my method is not so legal. They're still similar as they both show off the product before buying, one being legal and one not but still there are similarities.

The last time I joked that I had downloaded GOG off TPB and just used the website for support I got -1 on an almost GR scale.

1. To me they get a pass unless they don't bother patching said bugs after release or have a history of shoddy support and the game is bad overall in most or all areas.

And btw, who cares if someone who demos as I do pays less for the game in a sale? Many here buy the same games at the same or lower prices. The only difference is that I pirate to demo before I buy. Otherwise there is no difference beyond legality in both cases end result in money to the developer.

2. Nice of you to admit you pirated, but it now makes you look as if you were being smug and hypocritical in some ways be admonishing piracy earlier.

3. This doesn't hold in the case of those who do buy the games they "demo" and keep and deleted the ones they don't keep or like......as if you kept it and bought it you'd be one of the gamers I mentioned who do buy the games they demo and like, and if you didn't well then that puts you into the scummier set of pirates which I also don't support and which again I don't think make up all or even most of the people who pirate.

4. It's sad if a company folds because of lack of support, but this is how the world works. Not everything succeeds, and if it wasn't piracy such games could still fail in some other way anyways sadly.

Thing is, as long as you buy a game after pirating you are supporting the industry by definition and are not the same as one who only pirates and never pays.

Well, it seems that, at the end, we are in perfect agreement ;-)

Look, if it makes you feel better: You are one of the good ones. I know nothing about you and have no idea if you are lying or not, but I'll say you deserve to pirate everything you do because you buy everything you pirate. Good on you!

Trust me when I say: Most (not all) people who "try before they buy" or who are 'ethical pirates" are full of crap. I make it a point to check out a few warez sites (used to pirate. Then I grew up, got a job, and don't see the point anymore. These days, I mostly just watch the flow of DRM VS Scene Crackers. It is interesting, and really gives a good perspective on what DRM is actually supposed to do). I already mentioned one event which really pissed me off (sites basically changing their rules to allow for the warezing of GoG since the sister site didn't want torrents of the installers), and you can generally see trends.

Another fun story: Mass Effect PC. The first few cracks had massive issues, and, if the comments at the various sites I checked were any indication, a lot of people ended up buying the game because they wanted to play it in the first week or two, and cracks had failed. Not really pro or against any argument here, but I just always find that funny.

The same people who complain about pirating a game because of the DRM are the same ones who pirate a game because of no dedicated servers and are the same ones who pirate games because there are no demos and are the same ones who pirate games because their uncle's cousin's nephew's girlfriend told them that one of the PR people told an off color joke while drunk.

Back on topic, people just look for any excuse they can get to justify what they are doing. Whether it is "try before they buy" or just "Games cost too much".

If someone pirates a game as a demo (like an extended demo of the first hour or two, not an extended "demo" of the whole game), I have no problem with that. But if people are just playing the entire game then buying it when it is cheaper (or not at all), they are just hurting the industry, and games in general.
If you don't think that is unethical or bad business, whatever. I really don't care. But you can't honestly think that not supporting the devs (and publishers) who make games you want is a good thing.
Good to hear :p

I fully support the devs who makes games I like and want. I also said I only buy the games I pirate and like/keep, but yes I do buy them as I feel if I like it then I should buy it. Some might not do this but some do. Some are poor like me and do this because we've been burned in the past by buying crap games with no demos/etc and just want to have fun without DRM as well among other reasons.

I agree not all or most try then buy just saying some do and I do as well. We can both agree on at least that those who try and like & not buy are scummier right? ;)

Also btw no....buying when it's cheaper is not hurting the industry otherwise those that don't pirate and buy used on during sales are hurting the industry as well financially as they aren't buying it day 1 and new either.

And not justifying....just clarifying and explaining my reasons for doing so.