Hi there after seeing this form post here http://www.gog.com/forum/ultima_series/sound_in_ultima_underworld_is_playing_music/post23

I thought this sure is a lot of trouble for Roland sound.

Is there a difference between Roland MT32 and general Roland midi?

I would say MT 32 is the only option to hear decent music playing pre-GM era games. After that point (that is after introducing General Midi music) you will get better results using sound fonts. I've never came across a game in which GM music played on MUNT sounded superior to say Yamaha XG soft syntesizer or SB Live! with SGM sound font.

And this post you mentioned is old. Contemporary version of MUNT is really good and hassle free.

How is GOG doing on the sound front? I see the occasional post about music or sound issues, and I noticed your tagline says "I want MIDI back" and I remember a post you created a while back expressing frustration in this area. Could GOG being doing more (as far as DOSBox sound/music emulation goes)?

I thought it was worth it to get decent sound effects in Ultima Underworld. And I don't even play with the music on.

In terms of hardware there is a major difference. While I can't get too technical on the explanation, the MT-32 uses a different type of MIDI standard compared to later Roland devices such as the SC-55 and SC-88 where it utilizes the GS and GM MIDI standard for sound. MT-32 games are programmed differently since they have special MIDI messages sent to the unit that the later devices can't quite emulate right, i.e. sound effects and what not, which explains why in Ultima Underworld the footsteps play piano tones instead of the proper programmed sound from those MIDI messages.

If you are looking into properly emulating MT-32 sound, look into the latest version of MUNT, as a Roland MT-32 owner myself I will say that it is the best option outside of buying the actual unit. It sounds very close to the real deal and is a great option and is not too hard to setup actually.

GOG doesn't use any custom sound font + almost never the set GM as a default music option. Some says it’s good because with FM emulation you get melodic line, instrument balance - as close as intended by composer but I find it kinda annoying. I bet it is just too much effort required (you would have to install bassmidi or similar soft, play with technical support of third party software etc). What really pisses me off is that sometimes GOG doesn't provide installation tools to change music/sound configuration manually. That is a pain.

So - can GOG do more in terms of music in oldies? YES. Would it pay off for them? That's questionable. Most people just don’t care. Those who care can handle this by themselves.

EDIT: My dream would be if GOG took some free GM sf (say SGM), hired a musician who whould tweak it for each game.

If they could get it to sound like a real SC-55... that would be a dream come true!

As I never had any real Roland my expectations are much lower :-D simple tweaking in balancing of instruments would suffice. On the other hand: following pattern: munt, Yamaha XG, GUS and say 2 sf - always let me find a good solution.

Just to clarify (because I think your message could be interpreted such a way as well), selecting General MIDI as the music option in DOS games does not need third-party programs like BASSMIDI, as all Windows XP => Win8 machines have Microsoft GM/GS soft synth by default. It doesn't sound nearly as good as with a good General MIDI card or a replacement GM/GS/XG soundfont with BASSMIDI, but it gets the job done, and still sounds better than Adlib/Soundblaster OPL-2 FM synthesis music, that is the default in DOS games.

However, there seems to be some hiccups with General MIDI, e.g. in some games like Little Big Adventure, the music volume is too loud if you use General MIDI, you hardly hear anything else if the music is playing (or was it the other way around? Anyway the volume was way off.). I think this problem is specifically in Windows Vista/7/8 where you can't easily change the MIDI music volume, like you can in e.g. XP I think.

BASSMIDI gives you some control for MIDI volume too, I think I was able set the General MIDI music volume in LBA to an acceptable level with it in Windows 7, and/or changing the mixer levels inside DOSBox. But by default, the Adlib/Soundblaster music plays at correct volume, while General MIDI caused volume problems in Windows 7.

I wouldn't be surprised that's one of the reasons why GOG sets the music always to Adlib/Soundblaster. If someone wants better sounding General MIDI (or Roland MT-32) music, he needs to tinker a bit. I'm fine with this approach, as long as GOG doesn't require the executables to change the game sound settings... I've been able to get BASSMIDI sound pretty much like SCC-1/SC-55 with a SC-55 soundfont I found somewhere (I don't think it is necessarily the original SC-55 soundfont, but some kind of a copycat; close enough anyway)... but I think there are nowadays replacement soundfonts which 90% time sound better than SC-55.

There are a couple of DOS/General MIDI games where I still prefer using the SC-55 soundfont, but for the rest, I prefer e.g. the ChoriumRevA soundfont.

Especially for GOG games that can be quite a lot of hassle, as I think you'd basically have to either move the game files from your GOG DOS game installations to that special DOSBox installation, or replace the DOSBox version in all your GOG games with that special DOSBox.

From my point of view, it was much easier to install Munt properly into the system (and BASSMIDI, if you are using Windows Vista/7/8; BASSMIDI is not necessarily needed in Windows XP for Munt to work) because then all MT-32 capable games would work, no matter how they were installed and which DOSBox version they are using. Naturally you still have to select MT-32 as the sound source inside the games themselves, but no special DOSBox sound configuration needed after that.

But using that special DOSBox build may be a faster way if there was just one or few DOS MT-32 games you'd like to try with it.

True - what I wanted to say is that BASSMIDI (or similar software) may be your only optionwhen you want to make use of sound fonts. As you said it is not needed to play GM games because of GM.dls MS includes in his OSs.

I think it was said already, but those instructions are a bit obsolete already. In e.g. Windows 7 the current way of getting MT-32 emulation to work with Munt is (IIRC):

1. Install BASSMIDI

2. Install Munt (+ copy the MT-32 or CM-32L ROM files to the right place as mentioned in Munt instructions).

Then you can use BASSMIDI to switch between General MIDI and Roland MT-32, before you run a game. Naturally you also have to tell the game itself that it should use Roland MT-32/CM-32L/LAPC-1 for music, e.g. by running the internal sound setup executable for the game (it has to be run from within DOSBox); or then you have to edit some sound configuration file in the game directory manually, if you know what values to put where.

(BASSMIDI can also be used for General MIDI games to use better replacement General MIDI sound fonts (like ChoriumRevA, which I recommend) instead of the weak sounding default Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth soundfont. So BASSMIDI serves a double purpose for PC retrogamers, 1. allowing Vista/7/8 users to use Munt for MT-32 emulation, and 2. allowing one to make General MIDI music sound better by using better GMIDI soundfonts)

Also one point, as the original discussion was specifically getting Ultima Underworld sound effects to play correctly. I think Roland CM-32L is preferred over MT-32 in the case of Ultima Underworld, as CM-32L can play some special effects that will be missing with MT-32, at least the swimming sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NUQpAZeAdo#t=8535s

So, it might be better to use CM-32L ROMs for Uiltima Underworld, instead of MT-32 ROMs.

Then again, with many other games MT-32 is the preferred option. Older games with MT-32 ROMs, newer games with CM-32L ROMs. But I think overall either one is fine for all MT-32/CM-32L games, they are close enough and swapping them depending on the game is too much hassle. I personally opt for CM-32L ROMs as I am more familiar with how it sounds, so the extra clicking sounds in some games don't come as a surprise. :)

And I think it was answered many times already, but General MIDI and Roland MT-32/CM-32L are two different things. You can play MT-32 music with a General MIDI synth and vice versa, ie. there will be some sounds coming out, but it will be very erratic. So unless you are using Munt or a real MT-32/CM-32L, in general I'd suggest not to use the Roland MT-32 sound option in games, but stay with Adlib/Soundblaster.

After listening to Gabriel Knight 1 OST on a real SC-88, I died a little inside knowing how diminished my soundfont was.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFcTfHdOOSI
Sound is very subjective but my goal isn't so much "sound good" as "sound accurate" the way the designers intended, so I spend a lot of time comparing various soundfonts with the redbook audio or the actual hardware. For example, Betrayal at Krondor and Star Trail sound almost perfectly accurate with Patch93's SC-55 v1.8 than others including ChoriumRevA etc. Some, like Gabriel Knight 1, SC-55 is pretty terrible compared to the real deal, but still miles ahead of the others.

thx, I'll take a 'look' on it once a get home and compare it with my sf :-D

EDIT: ok, I must admit GK1 sounds great on SC-88, but comparing it with my GOG copy of GK1 (it has GM enabled by default) played by XG soft synthesizer - I would have difficulties in deciding which is definitely better. As you wrote - it's very subjective.

BTW in this yt recording - is it real in-game music or some rework was done?