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General discussion (archive)RockPaperSocialjustice is at it again(841 posts)(841 posts)
(841 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 25, 2013
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Kennethor: It is the women who are the lesser in the society, the feminist movement is about evening that out.
Yes, it is from a womens point of view but that is because they are the ones being opressed.
To say anything else is to deny the problem. We are living in a world where the man is the leader and get better salaries, rights and treatment.
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timppu: You are suggesting that men are never oppressed and women never favored.

Not true at least here in Finland (which actually was recently rated as the second-most equal (between genders) country in the whole wide world, right after Iceland). As a simple example, women here get much more free medical treatment and examinations than men.

Prostatic cancer is one of the most common cancers here (about as high as breast cancer on women), but because it affects only men, there are no free, public screenings for it. At the same time, women get free screenings for breast cancer, carcinoma squamocellulare (cervical cancer), soon there will be free papilloma virus vaccinations for women etc.

At the same time, many older men are denied even treatment for prostatic cancer which is found out too late, because it is reckoned they might die for other reasons, before prostatic cancer kills them. How nice.

Another example: women are clearly favored in courts, especially concerning custodial disputes.

Third example: Feminist keep saying that "men's euro is women't 80 cents" (ie. women in general get only 80% or so salary compared to men), but then they choose to forget that:

- men work much longer hours than women

- the pension system strongly favors women, as men die much younger (for prostatic cancer and working too hard)

While I agree that overall women are worse off than men, it is "men's issues" like these that these feminists are largely dismissing. Like saying that coming up with them is trying to deny that "women are oppressed".
You are suggesting that men are never oppressed and women never favored.

I never said that, in general women are a lot more oppressed than men though.

I can't talk much about the prostate-cancer, but I know someone in finland who was 75 years old and still got really good treatment. I can't speak for all, we don't have the problems you are bringing up here.
I can still dislike these problems and talk about them even if I am a feminist. Your countries feminists seem really weird and bad at expressing themselves from what you are saying, but I don't know that either.

If I would bring up all the ways women are being oppressed I would not be done in while.

men work much longer hours than women

So if they work exactly the same amount of hours they would get as much?
I don't know how it is in Finland but if it is like that, that's good. The rest of the world is completely different, including Sweden. And we are number four on the list.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Kennethor
Posted November 25, 2013
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timppu: Prostatic cancer is one of the most common cancers here (about as high as breast cancer on women), but because it affects only men, there are no free, public screenings for it. At the same time, women get free screenings for breast cancer, carcinoma squamocellulare (cervical cancer), soon there will be free papilloma virus vaccinations for women etc.
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keeveek: That's seriously fucked up. And you'd wonder why men live shorter than women...

Poland is even more fucked, though, because even if you are paying for public health insurance, you still have to pay for examinations. Prostate exam and breast exam are free only after you turn 50yo, which usually means too fucking late.

I guess public health care is always fucked up, but in different ways in different countries.
There's health risks associated with doing screenings on people that aren't at risk. Mammograms have a similar problem, screening women to frequently and too young causes more cases of breast cancer than they pick up.

Generally those figures are set based upon the risk factors and unless there's a particular family history to dictate earlier screenings, you're best to follow the guidelines that the doctors provide.

The HPV thing though is complete bullshit. Not only does inoculating men help to protect women, but it protects men against contracting cancer from those strains. I think the thinking on that around here is starting to change, but women, as usual, are a higher priority.
Posted November 25, 2013
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hedwards: There's health risks associated with doing screenings on people that aren't at risk. Mammograms have a similar problem, screening women to frequently and too young causes more cases of breast cancer than they pick up.
Ok, so mammographs are risky, but what about cervix cancer and prostate cancer? There's even a "joke" that medical students go on trips to Poland to see how cervical cancer looks like. And it's exactly because exams are not "free". By not free I mean even if you are working with public health insurance, you still have to pay extra.

This is not about sexism or lack thereof, but about public health care in Poland which is the primary reason why prostatic cancer and cervical cancer are so dangerous here even though in most developped countries it's a marginal issue (at least the cervical cancer)
Posted November 25, 2013
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Kennethor: Made up facts? Do any of these things bother you at all?
Why would it bother me what someone wrote in a picture? You might want to check facebook or something like that out because then you could be bothered all day. If it was actually the truth then it wouldn't be troublesome, it would mean society itself turned into a bunch of savage barbarians raping everything that moves.

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Kennethor: Why do you even talk about things that you say yourself, don't know anything about?
Because we're on a forum on the internet. what else is there to do?

I guess you're of a more noble breeding than I am, which is why you got such a huge horse you ride around, from which you can conveniently see who needs to be belittled and who the poor victims in need of social justice are. Who obviously can't help themselves in any way.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by WBGhiro
Posted November 25, 2013
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Kennethor: Made up facts? Do any of these things bother you at all?

Why do you even talk about things that you say yourself, don't know anything about?
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WBGhiro: Why would it bother me what someone wrote in a picture? You might want to check facebook or something like that out because then you could be bothered all day. If it was actually the truth then it wouldn't be troublesome, it would mean society itself turned into a bunch of savage barbarians raping everything that moves.

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Kennethor: Why do you even talk about things that you say yourself, don't know anything about?
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WBGhiro: Because we're on a forum on the internet. what else is there to do?

I guess you're of a more noble breeding than I am, which is why you got such a huge horse you ride around, from which you can conveniently see who needs to be belittled and who the poor victims in need of social justice are. Who abviously can't help themselves in any way.
If it was actually the truth then it wouldn't be troublesome, it would mean society itself turned into a bunch of savage barbarians raping everything that moves.

And that would'nt be troublesome!? Just because people don't get raped all the time does'nt mean that the rapes that do happen are less terrible. I'm guessing you have'nt met anyone who have gotten raped or sexually assaulted? Am I right?

Because we're on a forum on the internet. what else is there to do?

So you are just saying random things, about things you know nothing about just to upset people? Why?
There is a word for that you know, it's called a troll.

I guess you're of a more noble breeding than I am, which is why you got such a huge horse you ride around, from which you can conveniently see who needs to be belittled and who the poor victims in need of social justice are. Who abviously can't help themselves in any way.

Yeah, you're right. I should just watch when other people suffer and do nothing?
You are also implying that I am not oppressed in any way or look down on other people who are, you don't know that so please. Once again, think before you assume or write things.
Posted November 25, 2013
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Red_Avatar: Also, does RPS not realise that a massive amount of girls play DOTA and other similar games and I've yet to hear ONE complaint about that? In fact, it's quite the opposite - I've have quite a few out-spoken female friends who will quickly defend their gender when the need rises yet they see no beef in sexy characters and even enjoy playing them.
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Vestin: There's only one explanation - these poor girls got brainwashed into thinking that this is OK! The patriarchy got to them before the forces of good could...
Alternatively - you could argue that SOME girls are NOT playing MOBA games. The reason? I think it's fairly obvious - inhumane depiction of female champions.
Yes but in any argument it's about numbers. There's two groups of people who like female characters to be sexy:
- most male gamers
- a large part of the female gamer population

Then there's a group who doesn't mind and last you have a minority that is put off by it. So the question then is: if only a minority is against and a large amount of people is in favour, why should this minority get the upper hand? THAT is the problem with modern society - and that's what is happening in the Netherlands right now with the whole Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet debate. Millions of Dutch people want Zwarte Piet to remain, a small minority, maybe 1% of the population, wants Zwarte Piet to go - and guess who organisations pander to? And guess which part of the population doesn't even GO to Sinterklaas shows? It's fucking pathetic and ridiculous. The amount of feminists that are against sexy characters, in a similar way, mostly don't give a shit about games with or without sexy characters, so how does it even matter? (and all sorts of polls have shown this time and time again)
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Red_Avatar
Posted November 25, 2013
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hedwards: There's health risks associated with doing screenings on people that aren't at risk. Mammograms have a similar problem, screening women to frequently and too young causes more cases of breast cancer than they pick up.
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keeveek: Ok, so mammographs are risky, but what about cervix cancer and prostate cancer? There's even a "joke" that medical students go on trips to Poland to see how cervical cancer looks like. And it's exactly because exams are not "free". By not free I mean even if you are working with public health insurance, you still have to pay extra.

This is not about sexism or lack thereof, but about public health care in Poland which is the primary reason why prostatic cancer and cervical cancer are so dangerous here even though in most developped countries it's a marginal issue (at least the cervical cancer)
That applies to most forms of screenings. Every time you do a screening you run the risk of false positives. The worst tests are the ones that involve radiation as there's a non-zero chance of causing cancer with the increased radiation. Although, I'm not sure how they screen for cervical cancer.

In terms of prostate cancer, there's no reason to screen men that don't have symptoms or a family history until they're older. Sure the screening there isn't dangerous, but it is rather off putting and it's relatively unusual to have that cancer when you're younger than that. The medical guidelines are the same in the US, AFAIK.
Posted November 25, 2013
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hedwards: I'm not sure how they screen for cervical cancer.
I think you take a sample with this: link and than test it for cancerous cells. But I might be wrong...

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Red_Avatar: Then there's a group who doesn't mind and last you have a minority that is put off by it. So the question then is: if only a minority is against and a large amount of people is in favour, why should this minority get the upper hand?
I tihnk it's exactly the same with male protagonists in books / movies. Most of the people, including most women don't have an issue with that, but a minority sees this a problem for some reason. If even for female audience a male character is more plausible to be the "everyman", I don't think there are reasons to force-change that.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by keeveek
Posted November 25, 2013
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WBGhiro: Becuase pictures with made up facts on them are a proper argument now?

1 in 6 women raped? 97% of all rapists never spent a day in prison? The ominous Patriarchy?

You can tell me i don't know anything all you want, I'd rather not know anything than reading something someone pulle dout of the deep recesses of his anal cavity and thinking i'm educated now.
Ok, though guy. You're ready for the hard stuff?

1 in 6 women raped? How about you're not making stuff up and pulling from who-knows-where? It's 1 out of 6 american women having been the victim of an attempted or completed rape. Maybe read through the National Center on Domestic and Sexual Violence 2008 report / research on rape and violence - but be warned: you stomach might not like it.

97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail - coming from studies about only 40% of all sexual abused being reported to authority figures and about 3% being convicted. See the report I linked above or check RAINN "the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization.
One of "America's 100 Best Charities" -Worth magazine"
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Siannah
Posted November 25, 2013
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hedwards: I'm not sure how they screen for cervical cancer.
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keeveek: I think you take a sample with this: link and than test it for cancerous cells. But I might be wrong...
That's possible, but I lack a cervix so I have no idea.

The other aspect to all of this is that even when there is no medical risk, you're still diverting resources that might better be utilized elsewhere. We have a huge problem with that in the US where breast cancer gets a shit ton of money, but heart disease kills more women every year and gets substantially less attention.

Likewise, most diseases that only affect men tend to get overlooked, unless they affect erections. In which case they price gouge on the treatments.

EDIT: Not that I'm suggesting that this is a legitimate reason to avoid screening for cervical cancer if the rates are that high. That would imply inadequate screening.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by hedwards
Posted November 25, 2013
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hedwards: EDIT: Not that I'm suggesting that this is a legitimate reason to avoid screening for cervical cancer if the rates are that high. That would imply inadequate screening.
Cervical cancer rates in Poland are one of the highest in Europe, so something is definitely wrong with our health service. But you're right, more women (and men) die from heart disease than from cancer, but cancer gets more money. Probably because it's more "scary" condition and when when someone dies from heart disease it's usually "your fault, you fat fuck".

Also, most cervical cancer cases come from HPV transferred from male during intercourse, so I agree with you again - HPV is very downplayed by public health services.

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Siannah: 97% of rapists will never spend a day in jail - coming from studies about only 3% of those physically or sexual abused actually reporting the abuse to authority figures. See the report I linked above or check RAINN "the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization.
One of "America's 100 Best Charities" -Worth magazine"
What the fuck? Even in Poland around 80% of rape crimes are reported and in USA it would be 3%? I can't believe that...
Post edited November 25, 2013 by keeveek
Posted November 25, 2013
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Kennethor: And that would'nt be troublesome!? Just because people don't get raped all the time does'nt mean that the rapes that do happen are less terrible. I'm guessing you have'nt met anyone who have gotten raped or sexually assaulted? Am I right?
Well thanks, rape is terrible, no shit. You know what else is terrible? what happens to people if they get to court because of it, and by all means they deserve it. And what more do we have to do? We give the victim support, we punish and shame the asshole who did it, and make sure it's regarded as one of the worst crimes right next to murder. What fucking else do we have to do to make the system less misogynistc?


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Kennethor: Yeah, you're right. I should just watch when other people suffer and do nothing?
Then go to a third world country and do somehting. Minorieties in europe or america don't suffer, sure life sucks for them just as everyone elses: They might not get the job they wanted because they're black and the employer is a cunt who doesn't like them. The same happened to the fat guy, the woman, and the perfect white guy who finally got his privilege unchecked.

If they really get harassed in any way. there are protected by law, and if that' snot enough they can all rally together and have a nice protest.

What they probably don't need is some onlooker who doesn't have any idea of what happening but thinks he's Captain White Man Savior of Minorieties and has to remind everyone what they should be offended by.
Posted November 25, 2013
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Red_Avatar: Yes but in any argument it's about numbers. There's two groups of people who like female characters to be sexy:
- most male gamers
- a large part of the female gamer population

Then there's a group who doesn't mind and last you have a minority that is put off by it. So the question then is: if only a minority is against and a large amount of people is in favour, why should this minority get the upper hand? THAT is the problem with modern society - and that's what is happening in the Netherlands right now with the whole Sinterklaas and Zwarte Piet debate. Millions of Dutch people want Zwarte Piet to remain, a small minority, maybe 1% of the population, wants Zwarte Piet to go - and guess who organisations pander to? And guess which part of the population doesn't even GO to Sinterklaas shows? It's fucking pathetic and ridiculous. The amount of feminists that are against sexy characters, in a similar way, mostly don't give a shit about games with or without sexy characters, so how does it even matter? (and all sorts of polls have shown this time and time again)
of what I can tell, at least some "feminists" want a full separation between the sexes much like how PETA doesn't want any interaction between human & animal.
& also I think it should be pointed out that some of the sexiest clothing mods (at least with Bethesda games) have come from women.
Posted November 25, 2013
By the way, if only 3% of the women in USA are reporting rape to the authorities, and in 2006 there were around 200,000 rape crimes reported, that would mean in reality, in 2006 there were around 6 million women raped in USA just in 2006

WOW.
Posted November 25, 2013
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Kennethor: And that would'nt be troublesome!? Just because people don't get raped all the time does'nt mean that the rapes that do happen are less terrible. I'm guessing you have'nt met anyone who have gotten raped or sexually assaulted? Am I right?
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WBGhiro: Well thanks, rape is terrible, no shit. You know what else is terrible? what happens to people if they get to court because of it, and by all means they deserve it. And what more do we have to do? We give the victim support, we punish and shame the asshole who did it, and make sure it's regarded as one of the worst crimes right next to murder. What fucking else do we have to do to make the system less misogynistc?

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Kennethor: Yeah, you're right. I should just watch when other people suffer and do nothing?
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WBGhiro: Then go to a third world country and do somehting. Minorieties in europe or america don't suffer, sure life sucks for them just as everyone elses: They might not get the job they wanted because they're black and the employer is a cunt who doesn't like them. The same happened to the fat guy, the woman, and the perfect white guy who finally got his privilege unchecked.

If they really get harassed in any way. there are protected by law, and if that' snot enough they can all rally together and have a nice protest.

What they probably don't need is some onlooker who doesn't have any idea of what happening but thinks he's Captain White Man Savior of Minorieties and has to remind everyone what they should be offended by.
Stop throwing around accusations, you don't know who I am, what I do and what I've exprerienced.

Minorieties in europe or america don't suffer -- They might not get the job they wanted because they're black

Really? So because not everyone is being killed or beaten for having another coloured skin than white it's okay?

Then go to a third world country and do somehting
So you are implying that we are better than them? The dirty, savage people in the third world? (as you would put it)
Respond seriously or don't respond at all, don't make racist statements.
Post edited November 25, 2013 by Kennethor
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)RockPaperSocialjustice is at it again(841 posts)(841 posts)
(841 posts)