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michaelleung: Yeah, you either have a good command/control system in place or you don't, a la Modern Warfare. You can't just have some sort of rudimentary thing in the middle. There's no best of both worlds in a realistic shooter.
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Navagon: Good =/= comprehensive. The game has many command & control options, but that doesn't mean that they're all well implemented, or even that they're all necessary.

Comprehensive is good, at least for me anyway. Remember how you could do pretty much everything but order pizza in the first OFP, or even ARMA 2? That's what I wanted and expected from a Codemasters game claimed to be "realistic". Right now, it's just another open world shooter with authentic gun sounds.
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michaelleung: Comprehensive is good, at least for me anyway. Remember how you could do pretty much everything but order pizza in the first OFP, or even ARMA 2? That's what I wanted and expected from a Codemasters game claimed to be "realistic". Right now, it's just another open world shooter with authentic gun sounds.

Usually it's a compromise. If a game leans too far toward providing a ton of options, usually the core game mechanics and even the game's stability suffer. There are no shortage of examples of this. Personally I think that ARMA 2 perhaps leaned too far that way. But maybe it's just a matter of personal preference.
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michaelleung: Comprehensive is good, at least for me anyway. Remember how you could do pretty much everything but order pizza in the first OFP, or even ARMA 2? That's what I wanted and expected from a Codemasters game claimed to be "realistic". Right now, it's just another open world shooter with authentic gun sounds.
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Navagon: Usually it's a compromise. If a game leans too far toward providing a ton of options, usually the core game mechanics and even the game's stability suffer. There are no shortage of examples of this. Personally I think that ARMA 2 perhaps leaned too far that way. But maybe it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yeah, it really is preference. I'm a fan of more realistic and authentic shooters than the average COD (not to say I didn't like MW, it wasn't bad). But if OFP2 was going after the generic shooter crowd, then they should just leave it at that and forget entirely about their silly basic command menu things.
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michaelleung: Yeah, it really is preference. I'm a fan of more realistic and authentic shooters than the average COD (not to say I didn't like MW, it wasn't bad). But if OFP2 was going after the generic shooter crowd, then they should just leave it at that and forget entirely about their silly basic command menu things.

There are plenty of games in between the basic FPS and the military sims though. In fact, there are more than there are hardcore military sims. At least Dragon Rising is helping to move the sub genre in a more intelligent direction.
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michaelleung: Yeah, it really is preference. I'm a fan of more realistic and authentic shooters than the average COD (not to say I didn't like MW, it wasn't bad). But if OFP2 was going after the generic shooter crowd, then they should just leave it at that and forget entirely about their silly basic command menu things.
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Navagon: There are plenty of games in between the basic FPS and the military sims though. In fact, there are more than there are hardcore military sims. At least Dragon Rising is helping to move the sub genre in a more intelligent direction.

Yeah, but they're not very nice. It's probably just me, but I don't like mixing two distinct subgenres together and calling it something it isn't.
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michaelleung: Yeah, but they're not very nice. It's probably just me, but I don't like mixing two distinct subgenres together and calling it something it isn't.

Well there are tactical FPS. They're not hardcore sims, but they do provide a lot more options than yer standard shooter. You can't really write them off as just a mix up of the two as (as far as I know) they've been around for longer.
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michaelleung: Yeah, but they're not very nice. It's probably just me, but I don't like mixing two distinct subgenres together and calling it something it isn't.
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Navagon: Well there are tactical FPS. They're not hardcore sims, but they do provide a lot more options than yer standard shooter. You can't really write them off as just a mix up of the two as (as far as I know) they've been around for longer.

Yea they have, the Delta Force series has been doing it for many years now. Its not as hardcore as Operation Flashpoint one but if you play it like you would Call of Duty or Halo your not going to complete the first levels in those games.
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Navagon: Well there are tactical FPS. They're not hardcore sims, but they do provide a lot more options than yer standard shooter. You can't really write them off as just a mix up of the two as (as far as I know) they've been around for longer.
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Ralackk: Yea they have, the Delta Force series has been doing it for many years now. Its not as hardcore as Operation Flashpoint one but if you play it like you would Call of Duty or Halo your not going to complete the first levels in those games.

But the Delta Force series are terrible now. They've gone from really good series to crappy budget games that nobody likes. I hope Angel Falls changes that.
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Ralackk: Yea they have, the Delta Force series has been doing it for many years now. Its not as hardcore as Operation Flashpoint one but if you play it like you would Call of Duty or Halo your not going to complete the first levels in those games.

But they're more tactical FPS than military sims. Which are exactly the sub-genre of games I was talking about pre-dating military sims.
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Navagon: But they're more tactical FPS than military sims. Which are exactly the sub-genre of games I was talking about pre-dating military sims.

Did you mean to quote michaelleung? because I was actually agreeing with you and adding Deltaforce in to help prove your point.
Edit:
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michaelleung: But the Delta Force series are terrible now. They've gone from really good series to crappy budget games that nobody likes. I hope Angel Falls changes that.

It doesn't matter that they suck now I merely mentioned it to show the Tactical FPS genre has been around for a long time already.
Post edited October 09, 2009 by Ralackk
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Navagon: But they're more tactical FPS than military sims. Which are exactly the sub-genre of games I was talking about pre-dating military sims.
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Ralackk: Did you mean to quote michaelleung? because I was actually agreeing with you and adding Deltaforce in to help prove your point.
Ah, my mistake. Yes, I think that the original Delta Force was among the very earliest tactical shooters, along with Rainbow Six.
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Ralackk: Yea they have, the Delta Force series has been doing it for many years now. Its not as hardcore as Operation Flashpoint one but if you play it like you would Call of Duty or Halo your not going to complete the first levels in those games.

Actually i think the RPS guy said OPF2 was what delta force might be now, if it hadn't started to suck.
From the point of view of modders, ARMA2 is way ahead, as you can create litterally insane numbers of things. Giant battles where you are controlling whole armies... all playing out dynamically and unscripted. But with OPF2 you are reportedly limited to 64 brushes (a tank with 4 crew being 5), so it seems to have a lot less ambition and potential.
It's a shame that it sounds like the SP is so linear (despite being set in an awesome open world)... but the MP seems well worth a shot.
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Ralackk: Yea they have, the Delta Force series has been doing it for many years now. Its not as hardcore as Operation Flashpoint one but if you play it like you would Call of Duty or Halo your not going to complete the first levels in those games.
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soulgrindr: Actually i think the RPS guy said OPF2 was what delta force might be now, if it hadn't started to suck.

I actually meant the first Operation Flashpoint, should written that instead of Operation Flashpoint one as its not technically numbered one. I have only seen videos of Operation Flashpoint 2 and not much of the gameplay.
Post edited October 09, 2009 by Ralackk
While I personally tend to err on the "Smark" side of the issue as well (IE, doing your research and not buying "brands" over quality products), it amazes me the hippocrasy people on both sides of this issue display.
I mean, if anyone refuses to buy OFP2 let's say, but bought FC2 or Chinese Democracy, there is a severe lack of ethical consistancy there.
Or for example, going to see a 70's band live with only a single original member in the band, and complaining about OFP2, etc.
Not that I think everything has to be cut and dry, I myself feel that Farcry 2 stands on it's own as a great game that tragically has the same name as a virtually unrelated game by a different developer.
But it's funny seeing the logical hoops people twist themselves through to justify/refuse purchases. What's even funnier is that by default, anyone that talks about wanting something in the Fc2/CD/OFP2 category is told to buy the "real" sequel by the original developer. Very strange.
The Arma 2 demo wasn't bad, but the ridiculous things that happen...I mean come on, how can you not put in a line explaining to AI helo pilots that landing in a forest is generally a BAD idea???
And some of the directions the game went in are a bit silly. What's with the 'Now I'm a Company Commander playing basically the worst RTS ever as I roll my units around the map' bits of later missions? And what's with that map, anyway...is it sentient? It was pointing out enemies that I hadn't seen because they were 300 feet away and there were 2 buildings and a wall between us.