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StingingVelvet: I think if you took an RPG and removed all combat mechanics it would inherently become an adventure game.
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Elmofongo: I see RPGs should give the player the choice of combat, because that is the heart of RPGs, freedom and role play.
To a point but most RPGs are not very good about reflecting the consequences of combat. In real life we all have the choice to resolve our problems with combat everyday. But I doubt it would go well if we tried :)
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Zookie: I would disagree. I think the basic structure of an RPG is character development within the role you have chosen to play and story telling.
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StingingVelvet: That would make an interactive novel with dialog trees an RPG.
I would not say so, because you do not shape the character, only what the character does in interactive novels. RPGs give control over who the PC becomes, not just what they do..
Post edited June 13, 2013 by Zookie
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Zookie: I would not say so, because you do not shape the character, only what the character does in interactive novels. RPGs give control over who the PC becomes, not just what they do..
The point is you could have an iPad game with stats and classes where the main gameplay was matching three like colors. You're boiling it down way too much.

A game where you walked around a world, talked to people and enhanced stats to choose between stealing, talking or traveling faster, would be an adventure game, not an RPG.
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Zookie: I would not say so, because you do not shape the character, only what the character does in interactive novels. RPGs give control over who the PC becomes, not just what they do..
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StingingVelvet: .

A game where you walked around a world, talked to people and enhanced stats to choose between stealing, talking or traveling faster, would be an adventure game, not an RPG.
Why would that not be a RPG?
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Zookie: Why would that not be a RPG?
Because of genre foundations. Games based on exploration and dialog are adventure games.
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Zookie: Why would that not be a RPG?
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StingingVelvet: Because of genre foundations. Games based on exploration and dialog are adventure games.
I am not sure if there is a real authority on this subject and in these situation wiki is as good as anything. According to wiki a RPG is:

"Role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game[1][2]) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines"

Seems like a good frame work for the genre and I think that it does not require combat to fit this description

Adventure games are described as:

"An adventure game is a video game in which the player assumes the role of protagonist in an interactive story driven by exploration and puzzle-solving instead of physical (e.g. reflexes) challenge.[1] The genre's focus on story allows it to draw heavily from other narrative-based media such as literature and film, encompassing a wide variety of literary genres. Nearly all adventure games (text and graphic) are designed for a single player, since this emphasis on story and character makes multi-player design difficult.[2]"

To me an RPG is about decision-making consequences and an adventure game is about telling a story.

I do not think that the presents of combat adds to or detracts from either genre
Post edited June 14, 2013 by Zookie
I don't give those definitions any merit honestly, so debating them seems like a waste of time. I'll grant you that what an RPG is happens to be a huge question no one has a definitive answer to. Is Mass Effect an RPG? Is Call of Duty? It can get insane if you really debate it.

At the end of the day a game like Skyrim, with all combat removed, would be an adventure game to me.
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StingingVelvet: I don't give those definitions any merit honestly, so debating them seems like a waste of time. I'll grant you that what an RPG is happens to be a huge question no one has a definitive answer to. Is Mass Effect an RPG? Is Call of Duty? It can get insane if you really debate it.

At the end of the day a game like Skyrim, with all combat removed, would be an adventure game to me.
Very true. Defining a genre is a sticky issue because different people will give different weight to certain aspects over others. Even literary PhDs often can't agree on how to define books that were written centuries ago. So it is a very much an eye of the beholder attitude.
Post edited June 14, 2013 by Zookie
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Zookie: Very true. Defining a genre is a sticky issue because different people will give different weight to certain aspects over others. Even literary PhDs often can't agree on how to define books that were written centuries ago. So it is a very much an eye of the beholder attitude.
Agreed. Agree to disagree is all we can do.

If you go somewhere like RPG Codex or RPG Watch they will tell you an RPG is the classic Dungeons & Dragons definition, i.e. everything is stat-based and the only player skill used is in character creation and tactics. That definition would result in pretty much no modern AAA game being an RPG, lol.
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Zookie: Very true. Defining a genre is a sticky issue because different people will give different weight to certain aspects over others. Even literary PhDs often can't agree on how to define books that were written centuries ago. So it is a very much an eye of the beholder attitude.
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StingingVelvet: Agreed. Agree to disagree is all we can do.

If you go somewhere like RPG Codex or RPG Watch they will tell you an RPG is the classic Dungeons & Dragons definition, i.e. everything is stat-based and the only player skill used is in character creation and tactics. That definition would result in pretty much no modern AAA game being an RPG, lol.
I am curious though, in your opinion what are the parameters of an RPG?
Post edited June 14, 2013 by Zookie
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Zookie: I am curious though, in your opinion what are the parameters of an RPG?
I would probably go with the above hardcore definition for what is a "pure" RPG, and then call games like Skyrim "action RPGs" or something to that effect. I guess relative to the debate on adventure vs. RPG, I think testing your character against enemies and how you handle said enemies are important to the character building aspect for me.

I suppose if you built a world like Skyrim and had a lot of action moments where stats and decisions matter, even if none of them are combat, that could be an RPG for me to some extent. Like say a spy game where you choose between stealth, sprinting or persuasion and infiltrate communities or facilities and cannot fight anyone. However you could take that same concept and make a total adventure game with some simple stats in it.

I don't know man, haha.
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Zookie: I am curious though, in your opinion what are the parameters of an RPG?
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StingingVelvet: I would probably go with the above hardcore definition for what is a "pure" RPG, and then call games like Skyrim "action RPGs" or something to that effect. I guess relative to the debate on adventure vs. RPG, I think testing your character against enemies and how you handle said enemies are important to the character building aspect for me.

I suppose if you built a world like Skyrim and had a lot of action moments where stats and decisions matter, even if none of them are combat, that could be an RPG for me to some extent. Like say a spy game where you choose between stealth, sprinting or persuasion and infiltrate communities or facilities and cannot fight anyone. However you could take that same concept and make a total adventure game with some simple stats in it.

I don't know man, haha.
Sometimes we just know it when we see it :)
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Zookie: Sometimes we just know it when we see it :)
Question for you:

If you made Hitman and Death to Spies instantly game over when someone realizes who you are, removing combat, and you gave them stats of some sort, would they be RPGs?
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Zookie: Sometimes we just know it when we see it :)
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StingingVelvet: Question for you:

If you made Hitman and Death to Spies instantly game over when someone realizes who you are, removing combat, and you gave them stats of some sort, would they be RPGs?
I can't really say because I have not played either of those games
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Zookie: I can't really say because I have not played either of those games
Ah, you should! Might like them. Hitman: Blood Money is the easiest to get into I would say.

Basically if you want to play them that way you can explore, investigate, then put a plan into action and only kill one person in one large open level, and without combat. It's neat. I have heard a lot of people say they are multiple genres in one, depending on how you play them... stealth, action or adventure game.
Neverwinter Nights multiplayer on a Roleplay server, preferably with live DMs moderating the adventure or secretly observing how you interact with your environment and awarding you xp for it. ;)

Also, the A.Typical RPG perhaps? I never played it though and I doubt that was what you had in mind.