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General discussion (archive)New Tropes Versus Women Video!(803 posts)(803 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 30, 2013
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xaemar: I love her videos, but it seems that I'm the only one...? Why is there so much hate speech in this thread?
You're far from being the only one don't worry (but I personnaly don't share her opinion at all and find her perspective flawed, but I already said that.)

I also have to disagree with you on the hate in this thread (edit : compared to the youtube comments). The only 'incident' was with Freakshow (sry for not l33ting your name :) ), and he has unfortunate issues unrelated to the thread, but it's not "hate" just targetless anger.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by Potzato
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: I doubt the HAMC you encountered were 1%ers and if they were, 1%ers must be different in Greece or all the TV shows I watched are full of shit. (shows like Gangland)
Well, I got some news for you.

There's many other things I'd like to tell you, but I think you're more likely to figure them out yourself in time.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by WBGhiro
Posted May 30, 2013
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Piranjade: No.
Admittedly through my teenage years and maybe even sometimes during my early twenties I might have thought this way. But years have passed, I have lived in different countries, have met many different people and I have learned to accept and in many cases even respect their way of thinking.
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langurmonkey: So if there was a culture out there that is 100% pro murder, 100% pro rape, misogynist, racist. A culture that has all disputes settled with blood. A culture that sees women as slaves. A culture that accepts animal cruelty. You'd be okay with such a culture? You'd respect it? You'd be able to get along with people from such a culture? If yes to all these questions, you are a very unique individual aka most tolerant person on the planet. 99.9% of people would see this culture as evil and do what is possible to make sure it is erased from the Earth, forever.
As long as that culture does not want to impose its rules on me or touch my rights - sure I can accept the existence of that culture. That's my prerogative as a privileged person living in a quite rich and safe country. There might even be some culture like you describe around somewhere, what do I know.

Would I think that life could be better for the people of that culture. Yes, in my arrogance I would think that. Would I hope for change for them? Yes.

But it's the people of that culture who have to change. In their heads. I wouldn't do that by threatening them, invading or killing them. Instead by living by example. By telling them my opinion, my culture's way of living. By informing them.
Of course that might seem rather slow and unhappy for the people suffering from that culture compared to just eradicating them all and putting them out of their misery.
But it can mean change instead of death. And really, I think it's hard to erase a school of thought or a culture by killing people. It's more effective in long term to change that school and have it die out naturally.

As horrible as such a culture might seem within the boundaries of my culture as horrible I might seem to them. I cannot sure to be right all the time, I can only be sure to be different.

Edit: One sentence didn't make sense at all so I corrected that.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by Piranjade
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: I doubt the HAMC you encountered were 1%ers and if they were, 1%ers must be different in Greece or all the TV shows I watched are full of shit. (shows like Gangland)
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WBGhiro: Well, I got some news for you.

There's many other things I'd like to tell you, but I think you're more likely to figure them out yourself in time.
So Gangland is full of shit? Why? So these 1%ers let people disrespect them?
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langurmonkey: So if there was a culture out there that is 100% pro murder, 100% pro rape, misogynist, racist. A culture that has all disputes settled with blood. A culture that sees women as slaves. A culture that accepts animal cruelty. You'd be okay with such a culture? You'd respect it? You'd be able to get along with people from such a culture? If yes to all these questions, you are a very unique individual aka most tolerant person on the planet. 99.9% of people would see this culture as evil and do what is possible to make sure it is erased from the Earth, forever.
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Piranjade: As long as that culture does not want to impose its rules on me or touch my rights - sure I can accept the existence of that culture. That's my prerogative as a privileged person living in a quite rich and safe country. There might even be some culture like you describe around somewhere, what do I know.

Would I think that life could be better for the people of that culture. Yes, in my arrogance I would think that. Would I hope for change for them? Yes.

But it's the people of that culture who have to change. In their heads. Not by threatening them, invading or killing them. Instead by living by example. By telling them my opinion, my culture's way of living. By informing them.
Of course that might seem rather slow and unhappy for the people suffering from that culture compared to just eradicating them all and putting them out of their misery.
But it can mean change instead of death. And really, I think it's hard to erase a school of thought or a culture by killing people. It's more effective in long term to change that school and have it die out naturally.

As horrible as such a culture might seem within the boundaries of my culture as horrible I might seem to them. I cannot sure to be right all the time, I can only be sure to be different.
I've never encountered a person as tolerant as you. But what about a culture that promotes the conquering of other peoples? Doesn't that make people of such a culture, automatically your enemy? A culture that teaches it's children to not rest until they have conquered Germany... In the Star Trek universe, there is the Borg. They believe in assimilating everyone into their collective. If I find that horrible, I should accept them? Fuck no, I will destroy them on sight.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by langurmonkey
Posted May 30, 2013
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xaemar: I love her videos, but it seems that I'm the only one...? Why is there so much hate speech in this thread?
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Potzato: You're far from being the only one don't worry (but I personnaly don't share her opinion at all and find her perspective flawed, but I already said that.)

I also have to disagree with you on the hate in this thread (edit : compared to the youtube comments). The only 'incident' was with Freakshow (sry for not l33ting your name :) ), and he has unfortunate issues unrelated to the thread, but it's not "hate" just targetless anger.
Well, I wasn't especially targeting this thread, but in general, there seems to be much hate towards her and her videos.
Posted May 30, 2013
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Leroux: Well, it would appear that at least it's not possible with you, which is why this conversation is kind of pointless. If that's truly your conviction, why do you even bother trying to communicate with others? By your own logic, the only reason why you would do that is to start a "war" with them (because you wouldn't expect self-respecting people to take any shit from you, yet you feel the need to tell them that their "culture" is inferior).
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langurmonkey: So you think I'm just an exception? That you can communicate with everyone else in this world except me. LOL I wish you luck...
Nope, sadly you're not an exception, you're just an example for the fact that it's not communication and cultural exchange what's starting wars, but the stubborn lack of willingness to communicate and respect others.

But whatever man, I'm off to spend my time more productively than trying to communicate with someone who clearly has no interest in that. I wish you luck and happiness in your life, too. I hope you'll find it someday! :)
Post edited May 30, 2013 by Leroux
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: So you think I'm just an exception? That you can communicate with everyone else in this world except me. LOL I wish you luck...
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Leroux: Nope, sadly you're not an exception, you're just an example for the fact that it's not communication and cultural exchange what's starting wars, but the stubborn lack of willingness to communicate and respect others.

But whatever man, I'm off to spend my time more productively than trying to communicate with someone who clearly has no interest in that. I wish you luck and happiness in your life, too. I hope you'll find it someday! :)
Thank you. I wish you luck and happiness too.
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: I've never encountered a person as tolerant as you. But what about a culture that promotes the conquering of other peoples? Doesn't that make people of such a culture, automatically your enemy?
That's a very good point and a difficult point indeed.

When I say that I respect other cultures and would like to see them find their own way, how far would I go to ensure that they have the possibility to do so (without being invaded for example)? What would I do to protect them?

In the end in today's world, from my point of view, if one of the big nations wants to wage war on a small nation, there isn't much that can be done. Opposing them with weapons will most likely only lead to more people being killed without really changing the end result. A waste of life. A mere symbolic sacrifice.

So I would have to say that gathering and publishing information would be the way to go, aiming towards economic pressure. Embargoes.
These might to seem to be weak and ineffective weapons but I believe that's only because there is no "good" enough embargo yet.
Imagine all European countries would have invoked an embargo on American products when Iraq was invaded...
Instead it was just "do we send troops or not". That's not enough.

PS: If I misunderstood your question and this was more about the word "enemy", please tell me. I wasn't sure where you were going.
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: I've never encountered a person as tolerant as you. But what about a culture that promotes the conquering of other peoples? Doesn't that make people of such a culture, automatically your enemy?
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Piranjade: That's a very good point and a difficult point indeed.

When I say that I respect other cultures and would like to see them find their own way, how far would I go to ensure that they have the possibility to do so (without being invaded for example)? What would I do to protect them?

In the end in today's world, from my point of view, if one of the big nations wants to wage war on a small nation, there isn't much that can be done. Opposing them with weapons will most likely only lead to more people being killed without really changing the end result. A waste of life. A mere symbolic sacrifice.

So I would have to say that gathering and publishing information would be the way to go, aiming towards economic pressure. Embargoes.
These might to seem to be weak and ineffective weapons but I believe that's only because there is no "good" enough embargo yet.
Imagine all European countries would have invoked an embargo on American products when Iraq was invaded...
Instead it was just "do we send troops or not". That's not enough.

PS: If I misunderstood your question and this was more about the word "enemy", please tell me. I wasn't sure where you were going.
I edited my previous post to you but the additional words I added to the post will be kind of useless if you've never seen Star Trek TNG.

Okay, your post proves that war is totally unnecessary because a powerful embargo can destroy a country but would you be able to communicate peacefully with, respect and accept people who want to conquer you and your peoples? Imagine one such person was one of your co workers.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by langurmonkey
Posted May 30, 2013
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Piranjade: That's a very good point and a difficult point indeed.

When I say that I respect other cultures and would like to see them find their own way, how far would I go to ensure that they have the possibility to do so (without being invaded for example)? What would I do to protect them?

In the end in today's world, from my point of view, if one of the big nations wants to wage war on a small nation, there isn't much that can be done. Opposing them with weapons will most likely only lead to more people being killed without really changing the end result. A waste of life. A mere symbolic sacrifice.

So I would have to say that gathering and publishing information would be the way to go, aiming towards economic pressure. Embargoes.
These might to seem to be weak and ineffective weapons but I believe that's only because there is no "good" enough embargo yet.
Imagine all European countries would have invoked an embargo on American products when Iraq was invaded...
Instead it was just "do we send troops or not". That's not enough.

PS: If I misunderstood your question and this was more about the word "enemy", please tell me. I wasn't sure where you were going.
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langurmonkey: I edited my previous post to you but additional words will be kind of useless if you've never seen Star Trek TNG.
Why not adapt Ankh-Morpork's moto "We welcome foreign invaders" :)
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: A culture that teaches it's children to not rest until they have conquered Germany... In the Star Trek universe, there is the Borg. They believe in assimilating everyone into their collective. If I find that horrible, I should accept them? Fuck no, I will destroy them on sight.
Ah, sorry, I didn't see the edit.

A culture that touches MY rights, is aggressive towards me DIRECTLY, is of course (and yes, I keep that piece of personal arrogance) something different than somebody living somewhere in a way that I don't think is right.
It is different from my point of view when these people come here to kill me. So yeah, that would change the situation for me and I would defend myself.
Which of course means I value my life potentially higher for me than the life of the people being killed in their countries according to the rules of their culture. I know that there are people out there who are that selfless and travel to other countries and act as human shields. I'm not one of them.

Edit: I have to leave in a few minutes. So if I don't answer anymore, it's because of that.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by Piranjade
Posted May 30, 2013
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granny: A response to her 'first' Tropes video, which I particularly enjoyed as the maker did it without raising $160,000:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek
So I checked out the video “More than a damsel in a dress: A response”.

Wall of text follows. I felt that the reasoning in the video was really poor. Here are some examples (I tried to be as brief as I could - I missed out a heap of things I could have mentioned):

“What if we view those who have to rely on others as brave individuals rather than calling them victims?” Seriously? Having to rely on others is brave? No, it's not. It's lazy.

“The damsels in distress are not being rescued to satisfy the desires of Mario and Link, but rather to return order to their respective kingdoms...” That has nothing to do with the damsel in distress trope. The trope isn't about the desires of the protagonists, its about the protagonists story, which includes bringing peace to the kingdom (by rescuing the princess/damsel/chick/other object). Having sex with the princess “or bed them” as the author puts is not a requirement of the trope – mentioning that is as irrelevant as mentioning that they don't want to give them a pat on the head.

Also, the fact that the persons being rescued are princesses (and therefore control the kingdom) has no relevance to the trope at all. “She's a little ditzy, loveably dainty, and the stereotypical helpless princess in need of her hero.” That statement simply reinforces the trope.

The fact that some gamers might “love” Princess Peach, doesn't make the storylines less tropey. Some people like the trope, that's fine, it's still a trope.

The fact that she is in some games without the any storyline such as mario kart, doesn't alter the fact that the games she is in with any kind of a storyline involve the damsel in distress trope.

The author couldn't understand why Anita focussed on Zelda as a negative example of the damsel in distress trope? Because that was what the video was about. The Damsel in Distress Trope. It's right there in the description of the video!

“Zelda is an example of unfaltering wisdom and elegance?” Maybe she is, I haven't played all the Zelda games but the ones I have played, she is the girl I have to rescue. If she was so wise, why do I have to keep rescuing her?

“Zelda is always going to be subject to the evil of those who seek to bring down the kingdom. That's a burden she is born with as a princess” Why? Why can't she be someone who can fight evil (through brains or brawn or unfaltering wisdom and elegance?)? Because Nintendo decided she should rather be the girl who get's rescued.

The fact that there are a examples of games which don't involve the trope, doesn't lessen the relevance of the trope. No-one is suggesting the trope exists in every game. If that was the case, Anita wouldn't be proposing to make a series of videos about other tropes in video games.

I will try to look at some of the videos but the lack of critical thinking (and in this video the implication that critical thinking is somehow bad) hurts my brain...
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: A culture that teaches it's children to not rest until they have conquered Germany... In the Star Trek universe, there is the Borg. They believe in assimilating everyone into their collective. If I find that horrible, I should accept them? Fuck no, I will destroy them on sight.
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Piranjade: Ah, sorry, I didn't see the edit.

A culture that touches MY rights, is aggressive towards me DIRECTLY, is of course (and yes, I keep that piece of personal arrogance) something different than somebody living somewhere in a way that I don't think is right.
Me going somewhere to kill those people is different from my point of view than these people coming here to kill me. So yeah, that would change the situation for me and I would defend myself.
Which of course means I value my life potentially higher for me than the life of the people being killed in their countries according to the rules of their culture. I know that there are people out there who are the selflessly and travel to other countries and act as human shields. I'm not one of them.
OR imagine a culture that goes against everything you love which includes who you are, the way you behave. How can you feel anything but hatred towards such a culture and the people from such a culture? For example, I'm sure a lot of Western women hate most of the cultures of the past and they should because they were very much against women. See, that is why I'm saying, world peace, is just a dream. There will always be hate as long as there is difference. That is why I'm saying I only respect my culture and cultures similar to mine because it is only natural unless you are some kind of robot that doesn't care about anything. That is why I'm saying communicating with people who are too different from you is a waste of time. You will always be at war with such people and nothing will change that other than one side giving in or being destroyed. What I say is very dark so i understand why a lot of people do not want to hear this. ME VS ADZETH for example. I'm not saying he is right, he is wrong. I wasn't right. I wasn't wrong. I take back calling him childish. Because now I realize, this is just two different people from two cultures that can not co exist peacefully together, a clash is unavoidable. That is why, there will always be threads here that TheEnigmaticT has to watch so things don't get too out of control.
Post edited May 30, 2013 by langurmonkey
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: So Gangland is full of shit? Why? So these 1%ers let people disrespect them?
After watching just about 3 minutes of one of those things about the Hell's Angels, the shit percentages were pretty much off the charts, I think even GTA: lost and damned had a less bieased and reasonable view of "1% clubs".

As far as the disrespect goes it's pretty unpredictable, but the only people who'd get their panties all bunched up for being insulted by a complete stranger are bikers still under legal drinking age. The stereotipic Hell's Angels biker has a pretty tough skin, and knows better than to start fights jus tlike that, without being able to claim self defence first.. Hell, if he's in a good mood he might even offer you a beer for having guts.
Posted May 30, 2013
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langurmonkey: So Gangland is full of shit? Why? So these 1%ers let people disrespect them?
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WBGhiro: After watching just about 3 minutes of one of those things about the Hell's Angels, the shit percentages were pretty much off the charts, I think even GTA: lost and damned had a less bieased and reasonable view of "1% clubs".

As far as the disrespect goes it's pretty unpredictable, but the only people who'd get their panties all bunched up for being insulted by a complete stranger are bikers still under legal drinking age. The stereotipic Hell's Angels biker has a pretty tough skin, and knows better than to start fights jus tlike that, without being able to claim self defence first.. Hell, if he's in a good mood he might even offer you a beer for having guts.
Well thanks for teaching me something new. The episode that I remember the most, is an episode about 2 Mongols who kill 1 guy because he was starting shit with them. Maybe Mongols behave different than Hells Angels 1%ers? I wish I had better sources of info when it comes to 1%ers.
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)New Tropes Versus Women Video!(803 posts)(803 posts)
(803 posts)