How can you separate your role and yourself for such request? You are the role. You always make such request as player as well as role. There is no way to separate it.

Robb is actually right on this one. There are certain roles available that specifically lend themselves to directly determining the status of certain individuals. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here, but I am saying it's a possibility and therefore Robb's assertion is correct in theory.

I have such a strong town read on Robb right now, though, that if he ended up being Mafia I'd probably have to leave the game so that I could regrow a brain. You know, cause it would blow my mind.

I'm not getting quite as strong a read on you, Baz, but close enough for me to ask that you two back off of each other.

Orryyrro, the two statements you quoted are completely sensible together, in both I state I trust Robb to be town fully. As I said, there are many ways I could be positive but in this case I'm going to just chalk it up to intuition. I guess the only real way to know is to lynch him, but I'm not going to push that because I think it would be extremely counterproductive, because we don't know what power role he might have.

(And before the fingers about to be pointed at me for role-fishing get raised more than an inch: I'd be very grateful if no power roles were revealed here.)

I'm all but perfectly sure both Baz and Robb are town, and that's pretty much it. Neither have shown anything but town-friendly behavior, not even in their most irrational moments. I'd pick me out as a far more shady character than either of them if I weren't obviously sure of my alignment.

And Baz, since you already jumped on Robb for this, I'll preempt it in my case. Honestly the reasoning of "he's saying that he's town" is ridiculously flimsy, because who the hell is not going to say they're town when it comes to making a comprehensive enough suspect list to include themselves in some fashion? Town or mafia, you're not going to say anything but "town" unless you're suicidal or playing a really strange power role that does something neat if you get lynched.

I was not talking about cops.

I was talking about Masons and the many variations on them. Generally speaking you will know simply by your Mason variation's role name whether you are dealing with another townie. That means you can be absolutely positively certain of at least one person.

I am not 100% convinced -you- are town, because you seem to have some weak cases here and there -- but you almost always take a pro-town stance and show pro-town behavior. Let's say 95% or so. Certainly not a point at which I'd risk lynching you. Robb, I am 100% certain of, because in general he just does not post anything I can work with as mafia.

Wrong again. Mafia Masons.
Now this is an interesting statement.

Mafia masons exist, but in a game this small, where a Mason group of even 3 people is extraordinarily unlikely, I doubt Zchinque would toss that in there.

How is that an interesting statement?

Damn, that's the problem with these slow-moving things: I completely forgot Vitek already suggested testing Roosh's ability (#255), supported by Jess (#263) and nothing happened. Sorry about that, Vitek.

Again, this time more strongly: Roosh, cast two votes for me. If you refuse, we will draw our own conclusions.

True; however, I was talking about the general principle of the game here. I don't even know if we have any masons in this particular setup.

The context is what makes it interesting. In other words, are you trying to softclaim masons with Robb here?

Once again I would like to point out Zchinque's game on MTG Salvation. It was 12 players game and had mason pair. More precisely they were lovers and one of them was member of mafia. I am not implying this is the case but it is certainly possible.

No, in the second you say you want an argument on someone you haven't made you mind up on yet, then in brackets you give the example of Robbeasy.

So what do I have against Robbeasy, anyway?

I went through the thread, reading his posts in isolation. If anyone expects what I'm about to present here is solid, damning evidence, sorry. I do not have any such thing. If I did, I'd post it immediately. It's the usual bunch of small oddities adding up to a picture that seems fairly likely to be true. This is not a comprehensive list; it's tedious enough to read as it is. Wall of text ahead!

-- just after Roosh outs his doublevote ability, Robb claims it makes him a prime target for a nightkill, which is plain wrong, for reasons I have already stated ([url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post191]#191). This is not particularly damning, but it is something you should bear in mind for what comes later. Also notice this is the first post in which Robb demonstratingly waves the "I'm town!" flag which is going to see such heavy use.

-- observe Robb buttering up to Jess after the first longish post of the game ([url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post62]#62), despite his sharply contrasting #32. Rationale uncertain. This is where I made a note reading "blindly trusts jess". Climbs the Orry wagon Jess started pushing as comfortable wagoneer number 2.

#88 -- get used to this pattern, Robb likes it a lot. Lists a few people, provides a short comment to each. Now, at a first glance, all of these summarising posts look like Robb participating in the discussion, but look closer and you'll see the post itself is virtually useless, merely giving off the illusion of participation. Note all of the comments are very non-committal -- this could very easily be the mafia throwing around tiny insignificant FoSes around to cover all bases, just in case. Another thing to note is that there is absolutely no indication what was the key for selecting the people on this list. Subtle manipulation of the public opinion?

and [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post111]#111 -- I have but two words: Flip. Flop.

#128 -- the famous miscount, reportedly pushing Damnation to L-1, but in reality to L-2. I'm willing to believe this was an actual mistake, as the last votecount had been ages ago and the posts between were rather messy. This, however, doesn't change the fact that an L-1 push, at this point still without a claim from Damnation, is pretty damn suspicious, don't you agree? This is the vote that starts the entire Damnation extravaganza, but no one could have expected that.

Moving to Day Two now:

For some sixty posts since the start of the day, Robb doesn't write anything except two posts, #128 and [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post216]#216[/url]. I see two possibile interpretations here. Number one: Robb is town and these two posts are fairly useless. Number two: Robb is mafia and is buttering up to the doublevoter as much as he possibly can. The second post includes an odd vote thrown in as an afterthought. Climbs the Orry wagon Baz started pushing as comfortable wagoneer number 2 (now where did I see that before?).

#234 -- exactly the same thing I said about #88 applies here. Except this time, the selection of targets is at least logical. The premise is correct, but there are no conclusions whatsoever. Informational value about the same as saying the sky is blue.

, [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post238]#238, #242 -- Flip. Flop. Flip.

-- remember what I said about buttering up to the doublevoter? Thought that was a weak argument? Then go and marvel at the beauty of this post. I'll wait here. And while you're at it, you might want to check out [url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post252]#252 and #253. I particularly like the (relatively) heavy use of exclamation and question marks.

#265 -- for all intents and purposes the exact same post as #234.

[url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post277]#277[/url] -- compare "Also - I hadn't thought about the Damnation theory making me look suspicious tbh, but would I really keep pushing a theory that puts me in the frame if I was Mafia? Foolhardy at best I would think" with "I'm aware theres other ways of looking at Damnations lynch, and that my theory also puts me in the frame" from #234. Who finds the discrepancy wins a cookie.

Then I went and voted for Robb and interesting things started happening, but I'll be brief about those: an explanation that didn't explain anything, again with fairly liberal use of exclamation marks (), some time later the most peculiar refusal to understand why would Orry claim vanilla ([url=http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post318]#318) and trying to construct a completely ludicrous case against yours truly (#323; I'd honestly prefer an OMGUS to this). And finally, there's this whole mason thing that's still under development, but who knows where that will take us.

So all in all, that's it. I read his overall play as someone who is trying hard to be seen as active while refusing to commit to anything. Now which group does this behaviour correspond to -- mafia or town?

And here's Robb's complete vote history, if you're interested:

Day One:
votes Jess: 1 (#32)
unvotes Jess: 0, votes Orry: 2 (#67)
unvotes Orry: 1 (#111)
votes Damn: claims 6, actually 5 (#128)

Day Two:
votes Orry: 2 (#216)
unvotes Orry: 1, votes Baz: 0 (#323)
unvotes Baz: 0 (#332)

Wow.

I know this is going to be tedious for some, but I'd like to answer each point as it comes. I cant let a character assassination like that go by...;o) I'll try to keep it as short as possible...

Point taken here, and you explained it well in 191. I was merely pointing out claiming ANY role early on in the game would attract Mafia attention.

baseless argument. The first vote for Jess was a random vote. Rationale for retracting vote was sound IMHO.

I like to get things out in the open for discussion, listing what has happened recently - personally I think its a very good tool for the town! Non-commital? It was early in the first day! Key for selection of people? The wagonning on Roosh early on.

My suspicion of Orry has been pretty constant throughout. At that point just wanted to try and provoke reactions from others.

My vote started the whole thing! Really??? I pushed him to L -1 because at the time i was convinced by Ghosts arguments - same as all the others. I'm either 'safe on ' as second voter, or 'pushing the lynch' - you cant have it both ways.

Horrors! Second in a vote again?

Utter piffle. I put forward a well reasoned theory, with a solid conclusion putting suspicion on Ghost, Jess, and Orryrro. Your reasoning here is completely off. But then I cant be seen to be being useful eh? Wouldn't fit your view of me at all... I still believe either Jess or Orryrro , or both, to be Mafia, because of that very theory.

Listening to someones reply and being gracious enough to concede they have a point is flip-flopping now is it? I think not.

Here you're completely out of order. This was said completely outside the game, and i made that very clear, unlike your good self, who moaned like hell when I queried you after you requested a deadline! (which btw has far scummier undertones than me 'sticking up' for Roosh). I backed down when you elucidated, yet you try and turn the same argument onto me?!

Yes, because I happen to think its a good theory , and needed re-airing. Sorry if that doesn't fit your outlook of me.

About the only point in your whole rant that holds up. People make mistakes, is all I can say to this one. Honest mistakes.

I'll answer the rest of your points in one go - my rebuttal of your vote for me and first attack was well reasoned , with good points made in my defence. No-one rushed to join you in voting for me as you did your utmost to get a bandwagon going on me - which is presumably why you're back for a second go...

Again, using exclamation marks picks me out as Mafia?? No, obviously, so why do you comment on it?

Orry claiming a Vanilla role - honest puzzlement for me - I would assume a safer way would be to claim a power role if you were under pressure?

Ludicrous case against you?! I refer you to the Roosh argument you so nicely presented just now...;o)

I personally think I have been very active and done my best to try and root out scum and come up with theories. I've been mostly steady with my voying (Orry) and most i fnot all of your arguments are baseless and couched with suggestive remarks . I dont know why you want this with hunt against me, but I will continue to defend my corner. You seriously are barking up the wrong tree here, Baz.

I appeal to other players - do you Really think I've done nothing to help the town, with all my posts and theories? Truly??

Good, I can post the errata now:

At the beginning of Day Two analysis, the link should be to [http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/gog_mafia_3_jacks_of_all_trades/post188]#188[/url], not #128.

In the vote history at the end, the last but one row should of course read "unvotes Orry: 1, votes Baz: 1 (#323)".

I'm not responding to the counter-arguments until we hear what the others think.

Has it crossed your mind that it could just be because it is true? How would it help the town if I claimed to be a cop or a doctor or any other power role when I am not?

Yes it has indeed - and I believe Town aren't supposed to lie, which means if you are town and Vanilla, you would claim so. But its all WIFOM - just as good an argument could be made for Mafia deliberately claiming vanilla to breed yet more confusion I guess...

As I believed you were scum 90%, I would have thought safest bet for you would have been to claim Power Role, hence my confusion when you didnt. Like I said to Vitek, it has softened my stance on you slightly, you'll notice I havent got a vote on you.

Part of what aided my confusion was what was going off in the other game at the time - everyone under pressure over there was claiming power roles left right and centre - i just assumed you would do the same I think.

I have my reasons for the Damnation vote theory I keep banging on about. For me , its between you and Jess for Mafia.

According to Baz - i don't have theories though, i just go along with others...;o)

These reasons being, if you don't mind me asking?