"Town but bad"?

I have reviewed the votes on Adaliabooks on Day 1 during his lynchwagon. I'll ignore Viteks RVS vote on him, and start with the first real vote, Robeasy's.

Post 142 -- Robbeasy pressure votes for adaliabooks over the spaceship/train thing. He unvotes in post 283 after adaliabooks clarifies his actions, presumably satisfied with the response. I have already stated I think this was a pro-town use of pressure voting, and my opinion has not changed. I believe the entire "Do you see what I getting at" (forget exact wording) post is a red herring, and I'll need to look through to see who first brought that up on Day 2.

Post 397 -- Robbeasy again votes for adaliabooks. Were he scum, I am not sure he would do this. Adaliabooks still had a lot of heat on him, so why be the first to renew pressure. Perhaps had Robbeasy re-added his vote after a wagon got going on adaliabooks, I would feel different, but, in this case, it seems pro-town.

Post 408 -- Mrkgnao is the second vote on adaliabooks' wagon. It was a very quick vote on adalaibooks after Robbeasy placed his again. Had adaliabooks been town, this might be a little scummy, but since adaliabooks flipped scum, it changes matters considerably. Adding a second vote on someone with heat on them during Day 1 has a very good chance of ending up with them lynched. If scum is going to bus a team0mate like that, I would expect at least a couple more votes in the wagon. Mrkgnao seems pro-town.

Post 410 -- Yogsloth makes the third vote on adaliabooks' wagon. Everything I said about mrkgnao applies to this vote, only more so. Regardless of Day, the third vote on someone is the kiss of death in my experience. It is possible to escape a lynch after the 3rd vote, but it usually involves a parallel wagon gaining more traction or a believable role-claim. Since adalaibooks' was the only person with any real heat on them at this point, I don't think he stood a chance. Yogsloth's vote placement makes him the most pro-town player in the wagon.

Post 418 -- Adaliabooks votes for yogsloth. Either adalaibooks was still trying to avert his imminent doom, or he was trying to add confusion to later days by voting for a scumbuddy as he went down. I am stongly leaning towards the former, given yogsloth's placement in the wagon, as well as other reason I noted in my reads post Day 1.

((After this point, I think it was inevitable that adaliabooks was going to get lynched. Folks were ready for the Day to end, and adaliabooks was the obvious target. For this reason, everyone else more of a shade of gray, whether or not they are on or off the wagon. Scum could have easily voted for adaliabooks here, guilt-free, or sat on the sidelines to let town do their dirty work.))

Post 468 -- trentonlf is the 4th vote on the wagon. Dead smack in the middle of a wagon that has become almost a forgone conclusion.

Post 469 -- I am the 5th vote on the wagon. I actually started my post in which I voted for adaliabooks prior to trentonlf's post, but it hardly matters. I think the 4th vote is essentially the same as the 5th vote in this context.

Post 480 -- Dedoporno is the 6th vote on the wagon. This might be a big deal under other circumstance, putting smeone to L-1, but given the circumstances, I don't think it is a tell one way or the other. It could be town certain of scum, or it could be scum getting in bussing vote.

Post 491 -- Trentonlf pulls his vote, returning the count to 5 votes. It could be scum pulling his vote on a scumbuddy, hoping a false-claim might work (adalaibooks was already hinting he wasn't vanilla). Or, it could be as he said, he could have been waiting for everyone to chime in. Both are plausible.

Post 504 -- flubbucket is the second 6th vote. 'Nuff said.

Post 516 -- dedoporno pulls his vote, returning the wagon to 5 votes. This might be suspect, except ...

Post 535 -- dedoporno re-adds his vote.

Post 559 -- CSPVG hammers. This says nothing, in and of itself, as someone would have hammered eventually, I am certain. He does give a veritable laundry list of reasons he is hammering, though.


That leaves Sage103082, Vitek, DarkoD13, HijacK, and trentonlf offt he wagon.

trentonlf -- He brought the vote count to 4, then got off when it hit 6. Like I said above, this could have been scum trying to give a scumbuddy a chance to dig himself out of a hole, or it could be a town player making sure everyone has a say before a hammer vote. I read this as slightly scummy.

Sage103082 -- in post 529, she does suggest that adalaibooks is making a last ditch effort with his claim. She doesn't make a vote, nor does she elaborate on what alignment she believes adaliabooks might be. Could possibly be scum fence-sitting a little; unwilling to condemn a scumbuddy, but wanting to get a post in confirming suspicious of a possible false claim. Or, it could be Sage over-thinking it (but this could apply regards of her alignment). My read here is a little scummy.

DarkoD13 -- in 550, much like trentonlf, he says he will hammer after CSPVG posts. It is unfortunate that CSPVG hammered before he could make good on his promise. I think he would have hammered, but it still would have been nice to have confirmation. Regardless, he is fairly neutral to me; I can see valid reasons for both scum and town to behave has he did.

Vitek -- In post 519, he says he agrees with lynching adaliabooks, but he doesn't make a vote himself. He instead asks a lot of pointed question, withholding his vote until the are answered. I don't like his mild fence-sitting, but I do like his questions. His actions seem pro-town to me.

HijacK -- In post 354, HijacK gives reasons why adaliabooks isn't scum, but then states that he sees no advantage to keeping him around. This smacks of trying to have it both ways, or, in other words, fence-sitting. This seems scummy to me.

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I know some of my points have already been discussed Today. I'll most likely end up addressing them later when I make a post on everything I think is notable that has happened on Day 2.

Actually it does. What HijacK does here is implicitly shift the blame for his misreading from himself to adaliabooks' "bad play". I've seen him do it before in the observer thread of game #23. The "0 advantage to town" and "I only do so when I deem it needed" also sound honest. [Apologies to HijacK for the psychobabble analysis].

BTW, I think that adaliabooks' end-of-day play was anything but bad. It was rather superlative. By the time HijacK is talking about, adalia had a snowball's chance in hell of surviving the lynch, but at least he went out with a bang, coming up with a remarkably inventive role. He obviously did his homework, preparing for that stage.

Welcome back! We missed you!
It kind of feels like "Ivanhoe", with Richard the Lionheart returning from the crusades.

One factual correction, although it's only 11 posts between Robbeasy's vote and mine, in real time it was somewhere between 12 and 24 hours, if I'm not mistaken.

Pfff, I never stop blaming myself for the mistakes I make, but people don't need to know that. :P

I don't have a pattern for differentiating between a bad scum player and a bad town player. It's just how I see those players this game.
Adalia simply played it bad. He did no role claim and flub had to pressure him for him to have any interest in that. What if flub never came with the pressure on that and the day would have ended with no role claim? The whole situation can be compared to a game/movie so bad it is actually good. Did the thing fool me? Yeah. I personally thought no one can play it THAT bad. It is the first time I get something wrong from over estimating someone instead of under estimating them. He then flipped scum, so that's how I get to tell you now he was a bad scum player.
Yogy doesn't do a lot of townie things. Doesn't really chime in on questioning. Creates conflicts through his language. Omits things that were actually said. Doesn't bother to discover info. Comes up with overly complicated theories without having anything on them. That is not a good player. How do I know he's town? I don't. I just think so because of the circumstances (and if he is to flip scum, then screw this! I need to improve ASAP). Adalia kept him on his scum list for an entire day for something that some of the players gave yogy town points. Voting for adalia is a so-so. The compelling reasons for voting adalia didn't even come from him. Avoided some subject that we agreed not to discuss. As a whole, if I was to paint him as something based on these facts, it would be scummy. He created quite a few conflicts with townies. Missed entire points from their posts and added his own version of what they said. Never proves what he says.
As a matter of fact, adalia and yogy are very similar. Both tend to come up with these type of theories that sound nice, but not really. They do not bother to really prove anything as far as their theories go. Actually, adalia engaged in more questioning than yogy. This should make him look more towny than yogy.
But with all of this, I can't really picture him as scum. Such bad plays. It's not even funny. Call it a gut feeling, but I only think he's town, I do not know for certain. However, if I get fooled a second time in a row for over estimating the situation, I need to change something.

Maybe you mean he doesn't rationale for his reasoning, considering proving anything right now is pretty improbable? Or do you expect actual proof (as in rock-solid) for every theory?

I expect something at least plausible with something to point your finger at. His theory resembles that of an action wannabe detective movie.

This I get. My concern was the phrasing - if we had access to actual proof we wouldn't have been running in circles for so long :)

The main reason I haven't continued with my plan is that nearly everyone has poured scorn on my methods and my reasoning, plus its difficult to apply pressure when you are the only one doing so.

I currently feel like I'm fighting an uphill struggle to get my points across - maybe its the wording, maybe its because Mafia are doing a great job of obfuscation and attention dividing.

Vitek, who my vote is currently on, hasn't really posted too much since. I promise to spend time tonight getting back up to speed with current events (my attention at the moment is divided between work and kids half term - I'm not getting as much free time as i would like to give this game the perusal it deserves).

I have noticed I appear to be on quite a few peoples scumlists - mainly due to a frankly ridiculous bussing theory. Anyone who actually sat down and thought about it would see it as such, but there you go. Should I eventually be lynched, Town should pay particular attention to people that reacted to mrgknao's original post....

From what I can see only mrkgnao and CSPVG have put you in a bad light from the comment. Hijack finds it suspicious, but norhing more. I even asked for others opinions on it, but have stated I don't believe the theory. So in essence it's really only mrkgnao and CSPVG giving you grief over the comment.

I also don't see where nearly everyone is pouring scorn over your methods and reasoning. I actually see hour methods and reasoning as very pro town.

Now granted you are right and not much pressure is being applied anywhere. You have two votes against you, Krypsyn has one against him, and Hijack had one against him. It seems people are hesitant to move, not sure why either.

My whole point is don't stop scum hunting, you are doing a better job than most (especially me, my game has been rather poor).

Fair enough. I hear you.
I believe at least some of the problem resides in that there is more going on than just scum-hunting. There is an underlying struggle between game styles.

There's the generation that grew up on games #22 and #23 (which should probably be called the "kill-JMich-on-day-1" generation), a generation used to a fast and furious game style with dense posting and relatively short days. And there's the pre-game-#22 generation, who as far as I can tell are used to a much slower pace, where not posting more than say one post per 24 hours is nothing to write home about.

The older generation seem to play a more individualistic game, keeping their cards rather close to their chests and using things like pressure-voting and trap-setting for hunting scum. The younger generation seem more into group discussion, sharing, and quick decision making. The lines bteween styles and generations are not clearly demarcated, but I believe the struggle is there and it's affecting our scum-hunting. I know I have been part of it.

Perhaps you could prepare a gradient list (tend to town, neutral, tend to mafia) about all the players. Perhaps others will want to do the same. I find them useful since they limit the scum's maneuvaribility. Once they publish their list, they need to constantly justify changing their attitude and they become less flexible in jumping onto the random wagon.

So basically Yogs is playing very scummy but this is not a reason to be considered scum?

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Yog even says himself that his play has slipped. For right now I am seeing more scum-ness from yogs. I agree with a lot of Hijack points on yogs but unlike him I do tend to see yogs as scum.


Vote Yogsloth

Again I find myself agreeing with mrkgnao (I will be sad if you're scum). Between the people I don't know, who talk a lot, and the people that I know, who say next to nothing, I'm lost. I'm extremely tempted to take a page from Rob's book and start voting people if only to get responses/opinions/whatever out of them.

So, to Vitek
to CSPVG
and a new one for Krypsyn
Confirmation of what? Would there be a reason not to hammer after everyone had chimed in and would it have helped establish me as town or mafia?

Also, what do you think about people saying we should probably lynch you for inactivity? Vitek has said he would be OK with such a lynch.