No, I'm not that sort of person. I honestly was confused by the post, that is all. I don't have anything else to add to this point.
RB, could you please try to reformulate/simplify this argument? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly, the sentences are rather confusing.
You have to admit there is the possibility that you are scum making a brilliant gamble. I have not seen such a gamble on this site before, which is why I tend to believe you, but it's not entirely unheard of.
From his lynch flavour and the general gist of the game, I am convinced he was talking about himself when he mentioned there was another doctor.

Baron, here's the thing: You claimed credit for the kill, everyone speculated that you are a vigilante (you damn sure soft claimed it), and you made no comment to confirm or deny. Your right, you made no claim, you've let the town come to it's own conclusion without trying to influence it and have created the perfect means of hiding any possible claim. The only roles that come to mind that would have a nightkill are Vig, Serial Killer, or Mafia.

Speaking of this behavior, there's something else...oh yes, the Kill PM. This has me bothered too. Your wording to the PM as well has been kinda, slick. I didn't catch it before but now I'm starting to. Here's the lines, cut for posting convinience (but quoted so there's easy access to the posts)

That's pretty close to exactly saying that it's a quote, but I'm willing to say that at the very least it's wording designed to give that impression.

Looking at the whole of that setup, I have to say this is a fairly well crafted trap. It's enough information that our brains connect the dots, but there's no actual confirmation behind it so the information we come up with doesn't have anything behind us.


I'm going to randomly jump around replying to things, so bare with me.

Considered and thrown away. Reasoning: This was done in Game 4, where there was a Serial Killer to compensate. So, the only way I think this would turn out fair would be a second mafia or a Serial Killer.

I'll give you the bullet proof target, although I'm weary about that. With Rod as a Universal Backup that's a lot of power flying around.

I'm going to be honest, I'm fully believing that the second Doctor was Rod. He was the Universal Backup, and there is information on roles where backups can take over roles (Although normally I think it's like Nurse to the Doctor, and Deputy to the Cop, names might not be right because I'm working off of memory).

You're massively misunderstanding and you might have missed Jefe paraphrasing his night scene. Here, I'll quote it.

I'll be the first to admit that this isn't a full quote or as close as possible paraphrase, but I'm willing to believe what's there at this point. Combining this with Baz's flavor from his Night 2 action, and I'm willing to take the information available at face value until I see a more definite reason to doubt it. Consider this me saying that Jefe is leaning town.

One thing I'd like to point out though Red, is that a Softclaim (which you technically have made when claiming credit for Vitek's death) is STILL a claim, it's just not solid.

This is simple. Jefe was role-blocked night 1, which means he couldn't have executed the kill, and it would have killed him. Baz's flavor mentioned a hit to the head.

I'm not going to argue that there are other possibilities, but many of them are insanely far-fetched and I have no evidence for, so I stuck with well, simple. Taking only the information we had in front of us instead of trying to overreach.

Yeah. In all honestly I am confused by it. I keep trying to wrap my brain around meanings for moves, but Rod's I just have trouble understanding. Why he decided to lie about his role, why he decided to come out with his names to begin with...stuff like that just messes with my head something awful, it's how my mind works.

Comparing this to your info leaks, my brain went 'Ok, he's either a 1-shot vig claiming the kill so we don't try to argue why the mafia would do it, or he's mafia trying to pass himself off as a vig because of a tracker'. When you said you messaged Violator about posting your PM, my brain went 'No townie has a reason to do something like this'. I could more easily put meaning behind your movements and posts and thus it was easier for my brain to come to a conclusion.

As for Baz, I'll be honest, I can turn this over a few ways and see possible ideas, but looking at what we knew (Which was precious little at the time), I don't see a real reason behind his claiming. Rod didn't push it, he just gave a name. I can see a mafia based reason for his claiming, but not a town based one. And I have to say it again. I do NOT doubt his ROLE, but his ALIGNMENT, because the only reasons I can make sense of are mafia reasons.

Oh, one thing I just thought of

Now, and I'm not bringing this up to antagonize Baz again with this, but this is easily disproved. You have a claimed doctor out on the field, there's nothing 'better' that could be done with their personal night actions. The trap that I had discussed with Baz, doesn't work if you don't bother trying to put out a kill altogether, you simply put Baz over with him having to have blocked the kill.

I'm going to stop this post right here, cause writing it has gone off too long. If I left anything important out, just let me know what I need to address and I'll gladly do it.

I'll repeat it again: my motivation was to keep the Town Doctor alive. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, looking back at it with fresh eyes I am not even sure I understand it, but let me try to give you the gist of it, as I believe I meant it: That I am wondering why Twilight-Bard while not believing any of the claims, is less confused by yours and jefs claim, due to you confirming each other, while only believing 3 options possible for mine and the most likely being mafia. (I believe Twilights reply might more sense than my summation, since he appears to have understood it or something).

Guess I can sum it up like that, as far as I read it today - it got a bit estranged into itself.

Ah, of course, doh. I had gotten the idea into my head that the lynch flavor confirmed his claim that he could replace four persons.. just took a re-read and notices that it does the opposite, it denies it. And its just the last comment about ""4 people pffft" Bazilisek says before giving Rodzaju one last kick before leaving " that I guess made be get stuck to that idea. Thanks for pointing that out, could have lead to some odd conclusions on my end.


Yea, I know - It has already been discussed a lot - and I explained myself already in that regard. Bringing up options as to what I might be won't get me to say more than I have already - Lets keep it at: there is more options and yes, in order not to make a claim I let town make assumptions.

Has already been discussed, but yes I can see how it gave that impression, however unintended as it was.

Thats pretty much the whole point of a mafia game? We only have true confirmation from the dead. So yea, of course you have no actual confirmation. You have the info that I shared because it needed to be shared, whether you believe it or not is entirely up to you and only you. I'll just recommend that if your town, that you truly consider the impact if its true and take actions accordingly.


Its still an option none the less, and I believe you yourself just mentioned that an possible role for me could be SK, and the whole discussion about multiple mafia has appeared often in this game. I say it should be a part of the possibilities without doubt.

Well, he wasn't really powerful - He would only have uses if we lost the others and assuming that they both are town, then it would only make us gain the same roles, but collected to one person and easier to lose.

Yea, from what Baz has said as well, I agree, since my idea was made due to a misunderstanding of the lynch scene..

Consider me corrected and proven in the fact that posting while sleeping makes for odd posts. Had completely missed that and as such your argument takes a whole other meaning. For now I'll consider my FOS subsided, though I ain't still convinced about your innocence.

Yes, if the claim you talk about is the fact that I killed Vitek, then yea I made that claim. I have already said that me confirming it being a oneshot as well, doesn't mean I claimed anything. I let others draw conclusions as they wish, and if you regard that as a softclaim, then well.. its a matter of opinions. In my head it would make for one strange game, if others could write up what others were and by not denying it they would have softclaimed it. But hell, I might very well be looking too much into this constant way of bringing up claims, although for me its been discussed for ages already. Glad you did consider possibilities for the lack of night kill though.

Was he? I am just wondering what proof we have that he was roleblocked (maybe you could quote it?). We know that if Baz is truthful then he was roleblocked the night without kill. Let me just say that if we have a roleblock on night 1 of jef, then we also do have a lot of roleblocking going on.

Yea, I understand that notion, although in order not to think about it, I've decided that its either one of two things: He went batshit insane for no reason related to the game.

Or it might relate to his character drinking/being drugged, as mentioned in the lynch flavor. (this one is just something I began to consider after reading it, and I don't really believe much in the idea, would seem to be a rather bastard move).

Understandable, but it is a bit frustrating to go over the whole reason as to why I did it and yes, as I've already said - the whole paraphrasing business aren't going down in to history as a move to lessen confusion, as it was intended - rather the opposite.

Jack of All Trades can one shot vig on occasion as well.

Hmm okay what occurred here? All of you stopped posting? According to GOG its been 2 days, hence 48 hours since mine and Orryrro's posts, so something should have occurred during that time?

There doesn't seem to be any way we're going to reach a consensus with the way things are going at the moment, and my number one lynch target remains as NotFrenchYet. But there are other people I would consider switching my vote to.

I don't want to single people out for lurking, as we've just come out of the holiday period, but there are a few people that need to speak up. Should this not happen, then we may have to adopt a "lynch all lurkers" scenario again.

Red_Baron's "paraphrasing" still seems pretty scummy to me, and he would remain my second choice for a lynch at the moment. Both Damnation and Cruward_Darkeyes need to speak up ...

hey just came around to say i dont have time to do this anymore and im no good at it anyway sorry but i cant keap playing dont realy know how els to put it

I'm aware of this, and there's a lot of me calling for less speculation and more analysis. I was trying to warn us away from theories that would lead us in circles, or into cellars of wine. This doesn't mean I'm against all theories - as you rightly said, that's all we have. But I have been consistently wary of theories which have little or no relevence to scum-hunting. Town's job is to eliminate mafia: who cares how many factions there are? Even Robb's Mafia-Doc? objection doesn't hold much weight - as I read it, Baz is by no means confirmed town.

And no, that's not a U-turn on any previous stance.

I take RB and TB's joint brainstorming of reasons for no night kill as proof that speculating about certain issues gets us nowhere. Between them, we currently have a total of seven possibilities for the mafia's night actions. Am I the only person who fails to see how this helps..?

@Bard:
I keep meaning to point this out, just for clarity. That wound on the back of Jef's head you've twice mentioned in context of doubting him - according to him he received it when Joe was NKed (#848).

I take it we are looking for a replacement - is the MOD aware?

@NFY - yes there are lots of ways the NK could have happened, but our job as town is to provoke discussion, to draw people out by talking about these things. Nearly everything is full of Wine at this point, we dont have enough info for anything concrete.

The Twilight / red baron - Baz discussion is interesting, as is the wagon formed on NFY. Red - you seem to be very doubtful of Twilight, yet you jumped on the NFY bandwagon?? I'm not understanding your logic there...

Personally I'm STILL not 100% sure of anyone, even Baz, who it would appear was confirmed by Rod. But then Rod is suspect and known to have already lied, even though he turned up town! Then theres all the unprovoked claiming, jefe's continued survival and Red taking the credit for the last NK!

Its a complicated one for sure. Logically speaking, Red Baron is the safest Lynch. Why? He has already claimed the NK, and said it was a one-shot. Therefore, his power is spent. I have enough doubts about his claim anyway that he is a viable scum target, but should he be telling the truth we avoid the power roles which are undoubtedly flying around.

pre-post edit - shit, unless hes a jack-of-all-trades and has more than one one-shot....arse.

Im almost tempted to say feck it and go for Baz - his lynch would confirm sooo many things for us. But I am aware I may be going after a Doc, which is NOT good play. It certainly was a good claim to make Baz.

Bollox - back to the drawing board for a further think. Someone convince me about someone please, because for almost the first time in a Mafia game I'm a bit lost as to whats what.

So many townie points lost in a single post! You don't have that many left, Rob, be careful with them.

Okay Baz I'll bite - please explain to us thick folk why summarising my thoughts for all to see and giving people stuff to think about and perhaps pickup on is in any way scummy? Surely our job is to provoke discussion, put our thoughts out there and get things going? I was reading through as I was posting, I only came across orry pointing out Red could be Jack of all trades late on, I was going to delete all I'd said about him being logical choice, but thought feck it let it go - transparency as Town is all we can rely on, whether it be a shitty theory or not.

Apologies for casting doubt on your claim again, if thats what you mean by losing townie points....;o)) !

That, of course, is not scummy. What is scummy, however, is constantly pushing for a lynch of anyone who dared speak up. It's completely wrong reasoning: those who are silent are much more likely to be scum than those who, and pardon another Czech idiom here, take their skin to the market. Yes, lynching the vocal ones confirms their story. But what if they all were telling the truth, where does this take you? You end up at LYLO with semilurkers everywhere, and good luck with that.
No, I encourage people to doubt my claim, as that is correct play. The thing is, we have already grasped the concept of "question everything", but just that will not do. In the end, you have to trust someone.

I think that's the problem, we're pretty heavily into the paranoia, and the discussions tend to fly only between a few people while the rest stay quiet. And quite a few people seem to have not yet returned from Christmas vacation (Or it just feels that way)

And I'll be honest, and include myself in this when I say, that most of us have scummy shadows over us, either by our words/actions, circumstances, or both.

To NotFrenchYet: I disagree, speculating about what we have information to infer from it (such as the nightkill, where there is evidence that can help us see what might have happened) is pretty important. And there's no telling what other information there may be out there since we only know a few roles.

As far as the post Jefe mentioned the hit to the head, I honestly have to say I didn't notice that in my reading.