No, I'm not that sort of person. I honestly was confused by the post, that is all. I don't have anything else to add to this point.
RB, could you please try to reformulate/simplify this argument? I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly, the sentences are rather confusing.
You have to admit there is the possibility that you are scum making a brilliant gamble. I have not seen such a gamble on this site before, which is why I tend to believe you, but it's not entirely unheard of.
From his lynch flavour and the general gist of the game, I am convinced he was talking about himself when he mentioned there was another doctor.

Baron, here's the thing: You claimed credit for the kill, everyone speculated that you are a vigilante (you damn sure soft claimed it), and you made no comment to confirm or deny. Your right, you made no claim, you've let the town come to it's own conclusion without trying to influence it and have created the perfect means of hiding any possible claim. The only roles that come to mind that would have a nightkill are Vig, Serial Killer, or Mafia.

Speaking of this behavior, there's something else...oh yes, the Kill PM. This has me bothered too. Your wording to the PM as well has been kinda, slick. I didn't catch it before but now I'm starting to. Here's the lines, cut for posting convinience (but quoted so there's easy access to the posts)

That's pretty close to exactly saying that it's a quote, but I'm willing to say that at the very least it's wording designed to give that impression.

Looking at the whole of that setup, I have to say this is a fairly well crafted trap. It's enough information that our brains connect the dots, but there's no actual confirmation behind it so the information we come up with doesn't have anything behind us.


I'm going to randomly jump around replying to things, so bare with me.

Considered and thrown away. Reasoning: This was done in Game 4, where there was a Serial Killer to compensate. So, the only way I think this would turn out fair would be a second mafia or a Serial Killer.

I'll give you the bullet proof target, although I'm weary about that. With Rod as a Universal Backup that's a lot of power flying around.

I'm going to be honest, I'm fully believing that the second Doctor was Rod. He was the Universal Backup, and there is information on roles where backups can take over roles (Although normally I think it's like Nurse to the Doctor, and Deputy to the Cop, names might not be right because I'm working off of memory).

You're massively misunderstanding and you might have missed Jefe paraphrasing his night scene. Here, I'll quote it.

I'll be the first to admit that this isn't a full quote or as close as possible paraphrase, but I'm willing to believe what's there at this point. Combining this with Baz's flavor from his Night 2 action, and I'm willing to take the information available at face value until I see a more definite reason to doubt it. Consider this me saying that Jefe is leaning town.

One thing I'd like to point out though Red, is that a Softclaim (which you technically have made when claiming credit for Vitek's death) is STILL a claim, it's just not solid.

This is simple. Jefe was role-blocked night 1, which means he couldn't have executed the kill, and it would have killed him. Baz's flavor mentioned a hit to the head.

I'm not going to argue that there are other possibilities, but many of them are insanely far-fetched and I have no evidence for, so I stuck with well, simple. Taking only the information we had in front of us instead of trying to overreach.

Yeah. In all honestly I am confused by it. I keep trying to wrap my brain around meanings for moves, but Rod's I just have trouble understanding. Why he decided to lie about his role, why he decided to come out with his names to begin with...stuff like that just messes with my head something awful, it's how my mind works.

Comparing this to your info leaks, my brain went 'Ok, he's either a 1-shot vig claiming the kill so we don't try to argue why the mafia would do it, or he's mafia trying to pass himself off as a vig because of a tracker'. When you said you messaged Violator about posting your PM, my brain went 'No townie has a reason to do something like this'. I could more easily put meaning behind your movements and posts and thus it was easier for my brain to come to a conclusion.

As for Baz, I'll be honest, I can turn this over a few ways and see possible ideas, but looking at what we knew (Which was precious little at the time), I don't see a real reason behind his claiming. Rod didn't push it, he just gave a name. I can see a mafia based reason for his claiming, but not a town based one. And I have to say it again. I do NOT doubt his ROLE, but his ALIGNMENT, because the only reasons I can make sense of are mafia reasons.

Oh, one thing I just thought of

Now, and I'm not bringing this up to antagonize Baz again with this, but this is easily disproved. You have a claimed doctor out on the field, there's nothing 'better' that could be done with their personal night actions. The trap that I had discussed with Baz, doesn't work if you don't bother trying to put out a kill altogether, you simply put Baz over with him having to have blocked the kill.

I'm going to stop this post right here, cause writing it has gone off too long. If I left anything important out, just let me know what I need to address and I'll gladly do it.

I'll repeat it again: my motivation was to keep the Town Doctor alive. It's as simple as that.

Jack of All Trades can one shot vig on occasion as well.

Hmm okay what occurred here? All of you stopped posting? According to GOG its been 2 days, hence 48 hours since mine and Orryrro's posts, so something should have occurred during that time?

There doesn't seem to be any way we're going to reach a consensus with the way things are going at the moment, and my number one lynch target remains as NotFrenchYet. But there are other people I would consider switching my vote to.

I don't want to single people out for lurking, as we've just come out of the holiday period, but there are a few people that need to speak up. Should this not happen, then we may have to adopt a "lynch all lurkers" scenario again.

Red_Baron's "paraphrasing" still seems pretty scummy to me, and he would remain my second choice for a lynch at the moment. Both Damnation and Cruward_Darkeyes need to speak up ...

hey just came around to say i dont have time to do this anymore and im no good at it anyway sorry but i cant keap playing dont realy know how els to put it

I'm aware of this, and there's a lot of me calling for less speculation and more analysis. I was trying to warn us away from theories that would lead us in circles, or into cellars of wine. This doesn't mean I'm against all theories - as you rightly said, that's all we have. But I have been consistently wary of theories which have little or no relevence to scum-hunting. Town's job is to eliminate mafia: who cares how many factions there are? Even Robb's Mafia-Doc? objection doesn't hold much weight - as I read it, Baz is by no means confirmed town.

And no, that's not a U-turn on any previous stance.

I take RB and TB's joint brainstorming of reasons for no night kill as proof that speculating about certain issues gets us nowhere. Between them, we currently have a total of seven possibilities for the mafia's night actions. Am I the only person who fails to see how this helps..?

@Bard:
I keep meaning to point this out, just for clarity. That wound on the back of Jef's head you've twice mentioned in context of doubting him - according to him he received it when Joe was NKed (#848).

I take it we are looking for a replacement - is the MOD aware?

@NFY - yes there are lots of ways the NK could have happened, but our job as town is to provoke discussion, to draw people out by talking about these things. Nearly everything is full of Wine at this point, we dont have enough info for anything concrete.

The Twilight / red baron - Baz discussion is interesting, as is the wagon formed on NFY. Red - you seem to be very doubtful of Twilight, yet you jumped on the NFY bandwagon?? I'm not understanding your logic there...

Personally I'm STILL not 100% sure of anyone, even Baz, who it would appear was confirmed by Rod. But then Rod is suspect and known to have already lied, even though he turned up town! Then theres all the unprovoked claiming, jefe's continued survival and Red taking the credit for the last NK!

Its a complicated one for sure. Logically speaking, Red Baron is the safest Lynch. Why? He has already claimed the NK, and said it was a one-shot. Therefore, his power is spent. I have enough doubts about his claim anyway that he is a viable scum target, but should he be telling the truth we avoid the power roles which are undoubtedly flying around.

pre-post edit - shit, unless hes a jack-of-all-trades and has more than one one-shot....arse.

Im almost tempted to say feck it and go for Baz - his lynch would confirm sooo many things for us. But I am aware I may be going after a Doc, which is NOT good play. It certainly was a good claim to make Baz.

Bollox - back to the drawing board for a further think. Someone convince me about someone please, because for almost the first time in a Mafia game I'm a bit lost as to whats what.

So many townie points lost in a single post! You don't have that many left, Rob, be careful with them.

Okay Baz I'll bite - please explain to us thick folk why summarising my thoughts for all to see and giving people stuff to think about and perhaps pickup on is in any way scummy? Surely our job is to provoke discussion, put our thoughts out there and get things going? I was reading through as I was posting, I only came across orry pointing out Red could be Jack of all trades late on, I was going to delete all I'd said about him being logical choice, but thought feck it let it go - transparency as Town is all we can rely on, whether it be a shitty theory or not.

Apologies for casting doubt on your claim again, if thats what you mean by losing townie points....;o)) !

That, of course, is not scummy. What is scummy, however, is constantly pushing for a lynch of anyone who dared speak up. It's completely wrong reasoning: those who are silent are much more likely to be scum than those who, and pardon another Czech idiom here, take their skin to the market. Yes, lynching the vocal ones confirms their story. But what if they all were telling the truth, where does this take you? You end up at LYLO with semilurkers everywhere, and good luck with that.
No, I encourage people to doubt my claim, as that is correct play. The thing is, we have already grasped the concept of "question everything", but just that will not do. In the end, you have to trust someone.

I think that's the problem, we're pretty heavily into the paranoia, and the discussions tend to fly only between a few people while the rest stay quiet. And quite a few people seem to have not yet returned from Christmas vacation (Or it just feels that way)

And I'll be honest, and include myself in this when I say, that most of us have scummy shadows over us, either by our words/actions, circumstances, or both.

To NotFrenchYet: I disagree, speculating about what we have information to infer from it (such as the nightkill, where there is evidence that can help us see what might have happened) is pretty important. And there's no telling what other information there may be out there since we only know a few roles.

As far as the post Jefe mentioned the hit to the head, I honestly have to say I didn't notice that in my reading.

Actually Robb, that's the second time you've advocated lynching someone in order to confirm their information... This sort of thing can get sticky very quickly when numbers begin to dwindle. IMHO, the only way this line of attack might be useful is if it's a full roleclaim with actual night actions to offer. Since, if we believe Rod, the cop is apparently crippled by paranoia, we're going to need some other investigative role to out himself and be lynched in order to get really solid info. Assuming we have one.

But I don't really think that's a good plan. It's far too simplistic. And it makes no allowances for a Rodzaju-style claim that can't be trusted. And at this stage of the game the roles probably don't have enough to make it worthwhile anyway.

Hmm.

Unvote TwilightBard, vote Robbeasy

I'm noticing more and more odd things about these two. Robb's above post asked to hear Baz's thoughts on Bard: "in other words, convince me..." (#1003). Baz posts his case, and Bard responds. Then there's the brief WOT exchange with Baron. Then, with plenty of text but no actual comment on Bard's rebuttal, Robbeasy again calls for someone to convince him (#1030). Is it possible that Robb is carefully avoiding analysing his scum-buddy too closely...?

Bard actually defended Robbeasy in #651 when I noticed that, a few posts earlier, it was Robb who had drawn up the multiple-mafia theory again.

Also: @Bard, isn't speculating about the reasons for lack of nightkill just "muddying the water", to reanimate a phrase you used back in post #649? I've seen this happen during a hilariously complex power-mad RL game I ran (in this case no one died in the night), and after mulling over the various possibilities, the voting continued with no further reference to the night actions. However, thinking about it now, the RL game was an open set-up, so it wasn't exactly hard to figure out what could have happened... No, I still don't think it did the players any good. They came up with vaious scenarios, but none of that discussion had any impact on the scumhunting. It just wasted five minutes.