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NotFrenchYet: You call this slow?!
Nothing all day and night and then just the three of us with zero yesterday? Yeah, I was tempted to go with slow :).


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muttly13: Okay... only its a common practice on this board to save space, has occured throughout this post in fact.
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NotFrenchYet: Yes, but "snip" =/= "blah blah". Just a friendly warning that "blah blah" is far more open to negative interpretation (and therefore antagonism and/or confusion) than "snip" or "[...]"


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muttly13: I have explained this as much as I am able. I am sorry to town folk I could not make it clearer. Take as you will.
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NotFrenchYet: ??? "Take as you will" is effectively throwing wine in our faces...
I cant say the same thing endlessly right? If I answer to much I am panicing, not enough I am lurking. D@med if you do, d@med if you dont.

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NotFrenchYet: I'm getting itchy to launch my vote... First Vitek and now Rod have made cases against you which you have dealt with rather strangely... To Vitek you basically just said "Yep, that's all true." With Rod you exploded, and there are pages and pages of knots and tangles...

The deadline is next Thursday by the way, so you've still got time :)
Vitek quoted actual text and his feelings about it, not much to argue there. I responded to the ones where he drew conclusions I felt would lead people on in the wrong direction. Further, I can attempt to frame what I typed, but thats about it.

Rod began with misquotes and interpretations of those. Since both were incorrect, I am forced to respond to not allow falsehoods to mysteriously become fact. Rod also chooses specific words or phrases and take them completely out of context to fit his accusation, another thing i must defend for the same reason. And finally, he dodges counter theories with "hes scum" or outright ignoring them. The latest being how his own line of thinking is exactly like mine (in his written word at least) on Orry yet he remains lily white.

I thought it was the 20th? Ahh, okay then. Well, I will still be gone this weekend if anyone is wondering!
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muttly13: Rod began with misquotes and interpretations of those. Since both were incorrect, I am forced to respond to not allow falsehoods to mysteriously become fact. Rod also chooses specific words or phrases and take them completely out of context to fit his accusation, another thing i must defend for the same reason. And finally, he dodges counter theories with "hes scum" or outright ignoring them. The latest being how his own line of thinking is exactly like mine (in his written word at least) on Orry yet he remains lily white.

I thought it was the 20th? Ahh, okay then. Well, I will still be gone this weekend if anyone is wondering!
I'd like to see the things you say I misquoted.
You have thrown this accusation before, but I have still not been able to find it.
I did snip your posts for the sake of brevity, but I have never quoted something you did not write.

I am indeed lilly white, but if everyone thought so, why do I have 2 votes sat on me right now?
There are entire posts were you paraphrase incorrectly and then build your "case" on your incorrect transpositions. I have pointed out each one as you have made them. At least the ones I caught.
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muttly13: There are entire posts were you paraphrase incorrectly and then build your "case" on your incorrect transpositions. I have pointed out each one as you have made them. At least the ones I caught.
So you have said, but I still can't find them.
I suspect that they do not in fact exist.
Prove me wrong!
Anyone who has read my responses has seen them. I refuse to get into a hunt and peck competition with you because of your attempt to shift the responsibility on me. But, for sake of you somehow warping that into an anti-town stance, most of this town cop debate was started with you originally mis-paraphrasing me. Even when you were "quoting"... 734 or so I believe that particular event started.
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muttly13: Anyone who has read my responses has seen them. I refuse to get into a hunt and peck competition with you because of your attempt to shift the responsibility on me. But, for sake of you somehow warping that into an anti-town stance, most of this town cop debate was started with you originally mis-paraphrasing me. Even when you were "quoting"... 734 or so I believe that particular event started.
So you won't prove me wrong...
Or is that can't?
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NotFrenchYet: You call this slow?!
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muttly13: Nothing all day and night and then just the three of us with zero yesterday? Yeah, I was tempted to go with slow :).
I support muttly on this one. There are 3 palyers with no post in last 2 days. I wouldn't call this fast game progress. Yes, there are outburst of activity, mostly when Rod and NFY are active but otherwise it's crawling. This way we can already vote nolynch (it is not vote, it's part of sentence! It would be bolded if I voted. :-P) and do the same as soon as next day starts because it's only possible outcome we can get.
I don't want to wait this out until inevitable end.
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muttly13: Anyone who has read my responses has seen them. I refuse to get into a hunt and peck competition with you because of your attempt to shift the responsibility on me. But, for sake of you somehow warping that into an anti-town stance, most of this town cop debate was started with you originally mis-paraphrasing me. Even when you were "quoting"... 734 or so I believe that particular event started.
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Rodzaju: So you won't prove me wrong...
Or is that can't?
Let me break it down, Rod Style!!! (Heavy D, anyone, anyone, Buehler?)

1 - Bogus challenge he can prove himself in 30 seconds.
2 - Shifts responsibility of making an actual argument to me.
3 - When i respond with and example, it is ignored.
4 - Declare further suspision due to not responding to baiting.

I mean, if you guys cant see this for what it is nothing I say will change anything.
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muttly13: Let me break it down, Rod Style!!! (Heavy D, anyone, anyone, Buehler?)

1 - Bogus challenge he can prove himself in 30 seconds.
2 - Shifts responsibility of making an actual argument to me.
3 - When i respond with and example, it is ignored.
4 - Declare further suspision due to not responding to baiting.

I mean, if you guys cant see this for what it is nothing I say will change anything.
1- Where did 30 seconds come from?
I never said that!
This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.
You put words in my mouth & thenb accuse me of the same....
2- You have accused me of misquoting you.
I am asking you for evidence because I do not believe I ever have...
3- I am still waiting for an example.
You have neither provided the text you actually said or how I have misquoted it.
4 (& closing sentence) - "I'm full of shit & I dare you to acknowledge the fact!"
Actually THAT could be "misquoting"!! but it is how I read those last lines.....
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muttly13: Let me break it down, Rod Style!!! (Heavy D, anyone, anyone, Buehler?)

1 - Bogus challenge he can prove himself in 30 seconds.
2 - Shifts responsibility of making an actual argument to me.
3 - When i respond with and example, it is ignored.
4 - Declare further suspision due to not responding to baiting.

I mean, if you guys cant see this for what it is nothing I say will change anything.
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Rodzaju: 1- Where did 30 seconds come from?
I never said that!
This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.
You put words in my mouth & thenb accuse me of the same....
2- You have accused me of misquoting you.
I am asking you for evidence because I do not believe I ever have...
3- I am still waiting for an example.
You have neither provided the text you actually said or how I have misquoted it.
4 (& closing sentence) - "I'm full of shit & I dare you to acknowledge the fact!"
Actually THAT could be "misquoting"!! but it is how I read those last lines.....
I cant be the only one confused by this can I? Anyway, on to my point...

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muttly13: Nothing all day and night and then just the three of us with zero yesterday? Yeah, I was tempted to go with slow :).
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Vitek: I support muttly on this one. There are 3 palyers with no post in last 2 days. I wouldn't call this fast game progress. Yes, there are outburst of activity, mostly when Rod and NFY are active but otherwise it's crawling. This way we can already vote nolynch (it is not vote, it's part of sentence! It would be bolded if I voted. :-P) and do the same as soon as next day starts because it's only possible outcome we can get.
I don't want to wait this out until inevitable end.
I was thinking about a no vote recently. It is correct that if we let one day slide we dont lose until we mislynch right?

day 4 - No lynch
night 4 - NK minus one town
day 5 – 7 total, 4 town, three mafia

4 to lynch and we can still win. Any value tonight to allowing a hit tonight in the hopes of putting the heat on the mob to make a choice? Bottom line, its all the same to town and in fact lowers the chances of a mislynch (7 to choose instead of 8) while not changing our requirement to win, three straight mafia lynches.

I seem to recall someone mentioning something like this in the past but I didnt see the benefit of the NK info before. But now I realize its the same end game for town yet we have a slightly better percentage and an additional nights info.

And before you go all "hes panicking into a no lynch!!!", think about it. Work the numbers and see for yourself it really benefits town. Unless I am miscalculating something, and I am fairly confident I am not since I am sure to be lynched based on the suggestion alone if I am wrong... Town comes out better with a no lynch and the NK info plus whatever roles we may or may not have left. And the win conditions havent changed.
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Rodzaju: 1- Where did 30 seconds come from?
I never said that!
This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.
You put words in my mouth & thenb accuse me of the same....
2- You have accused me of misquoting you.
I am asking you for evidence because I do not believe I ever have...
3- I am still waiting for an example.
You have neither provided the text you actually said or how I have misquoted it.
4 (& closing sentence) - "I'm full of shit & I dare you to acknowledge the fact!"
Actually THAT could be "misquoting"!! but it is how I read those last lines.....
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muttly13: I cant be the only one confused by this can I? Anyway, on to my point...
I deliberately formatted it to avoid confusion.
It is a response to your post 803.
My point 1 is a direct response to your point 1, my point 2 to your point 2 etc.

This strikes me as a deliberate attempt at obfuscation to avoid my arguement.
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Vitek: I support muttly on this one. There are 3 palyers with no post in last 2 days. I wouldn't call this fast game progress. Yes, there are outburst of activity, mostly when Rod and NFY are active but otherwise it's crawling. This way we can already vote nolynch (it is not vote, it's part of sentence! It would be bolded if I voted. :-P) and do the same as soon as next day starts because it's only possible outcome we can get.
I don't want to wait this out until inevitable end.
yeah where did Xyem go anyway? and SPF? And Pazzer?
Not that I can really talk, but hey-ho
And with cop and tracker dead and with unusable flavour thief how exactly will no lynch help us?
There will be one player less, we won't be much wiser than today and there still will be players who refuse to vote anyone. I asked some people to vote loong time ago and we are less than week into deadline and some still haven't voted (and haven't made too much indication whom they intend to vote).
But yes, there might be some point in nolynch but if some poeple just don't vote it will just be prolonging of inevitable.

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littlerabbit: I didn't use it night one.
This was because the likelihood of me finding anything useful with 12 people to choose from and absolutely no data was very low. I did consider examining Pazzer due to the baker thing, but figured if I just got an oven glove or something I would have wasted my ability.
It seemed to me like it was more of a one-shot role, because of the restrictions, and because frankly I didn't expect to survive until D4! In this situation it would have been prudent of me to hold my ability until it had maximum impact.
On N1 (with no lynch) the chances of me stealing from Mafia were 3/11 (assuming there are three mafia; and not including myself because there would be little to gain from investigating myself, and I'm not mafia- but you can believe what you will about that). I would then have had to have waited until N4 to investigate again, my chances of dying before N4 were 1/12 +1/9 + 1/10 + 1/8 = 0.4(ish) which is almost a half! i.e. I had 50% chance of living to use my ability again; and I would have gained useful information with a probablility of only 3/11; i.e. mafia steal. OR i would have stolen from someone who later died or was lynched before i could investigate again. i.e. 1/9 + 1/12... which is 0.4 again

On N2 with a lynch and more data, the chances were 3/10 of stealing mafia, I saw this as a heftier possibility, when accounting for the probability of me being NKed the next night (1/7). If I survived this the chances of my target being alive the next day were also 1/7 if he were town and 1 if he were mafia (assuming we have no serial killer or vig). This seemed to me like a better risk, plus if i didn't claim I may have still had the chance of another investigation, whereas if I'd waited until N3 this likelihood plummets.
This is just wrong. How can you expect not to survive until D4 unless you are some role who wants to die? You have to tried to get as much as possible from your role.
You use chance to cop mafia as excue but it's not only about getting mafia but about confirming townie too so there is no reason not to use your ability.
I am starting to feel there are 2 options. Either it's newbie mistake, which is entirely possible. Lot of people tries to hide behind it and so far it was truth most often than not.
Or you are mafia and have some kind of restriction. As you can't use your ability unless you carry out the kill night before or something like that. That would explain why you wasn't able to use it on day 1 and on D3.

Thoughts on this? Do others think it's plausible?

Also OOC, can someone tell me what's wrong with my post #780? Why are url tags broken?
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littlerabbit: yeah where did Xyem go anyway?
Nowhere :P Just watching the exchange between muttly and Rod.

The main thing bothering me at the moment is the way muttly initially seemed to be blaming Rod for making/inspiring him to vote (emphasis mine):
" You are not against lynching him if you are the last vote...
...You wouldn't pick him as your first choice. " - I am new to this game, but I am not unable to pick out human behavior. Next to last vote would be as good as the last in the environment surrounding Orry. To deny that is just plain silly. Of course, one could also take my statement and think "hey, I can probably get another vote in Muttly" and then vote in the hopes I would follow, and who was it that sparked my vote I wonder... Oh yes!!! It was you!
NFY quotes the two posts in question here and I have to agree. I don't see how Rod could have even known his vote would trigger muttly's vote.. let alone any attempt to push it...

muttly is also right (as far as I can tell) about nolynch increasing the odds of hitting scum tomorrow while not really putting us in any worse a position we are in now. But that's presuming nothing interferes.. and we've seen that there is plenty of that (i.e. two nights in a row) :/
*hopes this doesn't merge*

Does anyone think there may be something more to the "I'll be back after the deadline... oh, is the deadline after I get back? I just thought about nolynch..." sequence of events?