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Randalator: ... That would have happened all the same because that whole IP tracking thing is very wonky to begin with. I know because I was personally involved in a case where faulty IP tracking could have cost a life if the person behind the IP had actually intended to commit suicide instead of just threatening to do so.
The IP to physical adress connection should be flawless. So you could at least with high security say where it originated from without knowing the person. If you then would implement a three-strikes model (two times you're warned, then there are fines) on the holder of the IP connection I think you could drive the probability of fining an innocent to very low values.
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amok: ... I am doing a PhD, I got print outs flying everywhere... god, no more papers to keep track of, please
I also have piles of paper here but I rather had a sheet of paper stating my ownership of my GOG games than a Steam account.

But that's just the standard as it currently is. Officially everything that is printed out and signed counts. Even in science good conduct guides say that you should write a lab book containing all relevant information. So please be careful with your flying prints and put them in folders. :)
Post edited October 07, 2013 by Trilarion
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Trilarion: The IP to physical adress connection should be flawless. So you could at least with high security say where it originated from without knowing the person. If you then would implement a three-strikes model (two times you're warned, then there are fines) on the holder of the IP connection I think you could drive the probability of fining an innocent to very low values.
Yeah, sorry if I remain unconvinced with the frankly abysmal track record the providers have in my personal experience.
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amok: The only thing to be added, is that if gog folds, it becomes on the onus of the customers to bug (pun intended) the individual developers for any hotfixes, patches, expansions and so on, as this was part of GoG's service. The people selling the licenses is still obliged to provide this (I think that was one of the things in the EU ruling), but only if you deal directly with them. You are not allowed to use any other services for to 'maintain' your software (unless the service allows you to do so).
That's a fair point, although I suspect in most cases that the developer would long have ceased supporting the software anyway. The old games are almost never patched with the exception of installer updates, DOSBox configurations and the addition of missing files (I know there's a few exceptions like Postal 1 & 2). By the time GOG folds (which, like Valve, it undoubtedly and eventually will in years to come), the vast majority of these games will not have seen any actual patches for a long time and the original installers will continue to run on the hardware and OS that GOG supported at that time.

Games are unique in that the supply of patches and support is generally very short when you compare it to productivity software. Most games will see 5-6 patches at most (usually one or two, if any) within a timeframe of a year or so and that's it.
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Xanto: No, I'm saying potentially you could be waisting time not playing a game for years because a belief that having DRM free will increase your probability to play a game years from now.
Why is he wasting time? Doesn't he have anything else to play in the meantime? I have maybe thousands of games in my backlog (or my gaming library, as I like to call it). I presume many other gamers also have lots of games in their backlog so that they can easily skip many recent releases.

Is someone wasting time for not running out now to buy GTA V for a console today, and waiting for the PC version instead, and maybe playing Saints Row IV in the meantime?

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Xanto: Not arguing for it one way or another, simply MY VIEW on it and why I don't consider DRM free any safer than DRM. GOG any better than Steam.
"Better" between services is a matter of opinion, of course.

But saying that a DRM-free release is more likely to be playable in the future than a DRM-release, is not. This is a fact. Just like it is a fact that if you use a safety belt while driving, you have a better probability of not hurting yourself, or even dying, while driving (and possibly getting into an accident).

You might keep claiming that using a safety belt/airbag wouldn't in general increase your chances of surviving a crash, but you would still be wrong.

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Xanto: If someone says there buying from GOG because of extra content, no clients and so forth those are much more practical reasons...
Usually there are other reasons too, like the broken offline mode of Steam (it failed me last week, for example).

But even the long-term usability of games is good enough reason to prefer DRM-free or copy protection free games and media. Quite many Starforce and TAGES retail games fail nowadays due to the copy protection schemes that fail to work on newer Windows versions. The pirated versions where the DRM/copy protection is inert may still work fine.

If you do like Pheace and proclaim that you couldn't care less even if you lost all your Steam games one day just because the store you bought them from stops working, that's completely fine. But don't pretend that there is no chance of that ever happening, as if Steam is eternal.

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Xanto: Possibly but since Valve claims they want to keep SteamOS an open platform... the potential is there to modify Steam OS to run emulators and such and to get windows games working under SteamOS. Assuming all that still works as you believe it will.
Alternatively, you could just play the DRM-free versions on that same system (using emulators, if you need) that don't rely on Valve's goodwill to add the emulated versions into the new Steam client running on different hardware(OS.

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timppu: But it does, because it is one less potential obstacle to run your games in the future.
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Xanto: An obstacle that can be broken and get you playing today rather than waiting years. Almost any DRM can be broken... so if your willing to put the effort to get an old game to work 20 years from now... most will just put the same effort to break the DRM.
And it is still an extra hurdle that you must wait for someone to solve for you, a hurdle that wouldn't exist at all with the DRM-free version.

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timppu: I would say controls would be one of the first things to change with the rise in touch and motion controls... sooner or later some company will prefect this will enough for acceptance.
Do you see yourself writing your messages here without a keyboard, even a virtual keyboard? Maybe write your messages with a motion controls, or speak out your messages so that everyone can hear them in the office?

Virtual keyboards on tablets show that there are always ways to emulate the other kinds of archaic controls.

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timppu: You are now completely mixing up things.

GOG is talking about getting old Windows 95 games running on Windows 7 and Windows 8 systems, without emulators for the most part (nGlide is one emulator though, making it much easier for GOG to get 3Dfx Glide games to work on modern systems). That is indeed quite tricky in many cases, because they have to rely on the backwards compatibility of new Windows versions, and PC hardware.

However, the GOG games that are emulated, e.g. games running in DOSBox or ScummVM... those should be quite easy for GOG to get to work on modern systems, simply because then they don't have to rely on backwards compatibility. That's what emulators and virtual machines are for, to make the emulated system hardware/OS _independent_.

DOSBox and ScummVM games are hence quite easy to get to run also on non-Windows and even non-x86 systems.
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Xanto: I was of-course talking about getting the game working under future system without emulation if emulation wasn't doable.
That is irrelevant when talking about emulation. sure, it may be hard if not even impossible to run Windows applications directly on an Android device, no argument there. But that doesn't relate to this discussion in any way.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
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amok: Part of the trouble CDPR got into is that there was no easy way to verify whether the user was playing a legitimate Witcher 3 or not, if they had some confirmation thingy built in, that debacle would not have happened.
What an odd thing to say. Are you saying that a person can't at the same time being playing a legitime copy of a game, and illegally sharing it (or a pirated version) of it on some torrent site?

The two have absolutely nothing to do with it. CDPR was not trying to go after people who were currently playing The Witcher 2 (possibly illegally so). They were going after people who appeared to be sharing (uploading) the game on e.g. torrent sites.

(Actually it was the legal firm and their tech wizards doing the dirty work, not CDPR, of course.)

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amok: And yes, as long as there is piracy, there will be more and more tighter or inventive DRM models (like Diablo 3 and Sim City, these experiments with DRM models will continue). For many these is seen as protecting their investments. Which is a reason why I get annoyed when is sees some of the so-called pro-DRM free people here claiming "I will just pirate the game" as it is something to be proud of. No, you are just perpetuating the system and legitimizing the use of DRM in the first placer. that was a side-note... but it annoys me.
And that is exactly why I was for CDPR going after The Witcher 2 pirates, who were sharing it on torrent sites.

That's the same way how the people who are pirating cracked Steam games are caught, by the way. Steam DRM does nothing to help in catching the pirates.

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amok: The whole Witcher IP thingy would not have happened if it was DRM'd and the users legitimate copies was tracked by CDPR (or someone else)...
No, that is not how the torrent seeders of copyrighted material are tracked.

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amok: the whole thing there happened was because CDPR accused legitimate users of piracy.
They never did.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
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Post edited December 14, 2013 by user deleted
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Trilarion: Also with DRM free I can say this. I just need to show the email I got from GOG. A proof of purchase doesn't have to be DRM, a simple receipt should be sufficient.
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amok: but that do not stop CDPR treating legitimate customers as pirates until the customer managed to procure evidence that they had a legitimate copy.
So if you are caught of seeding a cracked Steam game on a torrent site, you really think that showing a receipt or your Steam account details that you also own that game legitimely, gets you off the hook?

No it doesn't. Having a license to play the game didn't grant you a license to e.g. share the game to others, or sell copies of it. GOG Witcher 2 doesn't have DRM to prevent you from doing that, but that doesn't mean CDPR wouldn't come after you if you did it regardless.

Hence, treating only the criminals as criminals.

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amok: Talk about a publisher treating customers as thieves? :)
Only the customers who have chosen to share the same game on torrent sites to others, something they are not allowed to do.

I have never shared Witcher 2 on any torrent site, hence I haven't received any legal mail from a CDPR. If I had, I would have told them that they are mistaken, and they should recheck the ISP logs.

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amok: (and what if I had accidentally deleted that email? or moved email services and can no longer access it?)
It doesn't matter, because owning a license to the game will probably not be considered as mitigating circumstances in court when you are accused of sharing a game illegally to others.
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Trilarion: The IP to physical adress connection should be flawless. So you could at least with high security say where it originated from without knowing the person. If you then would implement a three-strikes model (two times you're warned, then there are fines) on the holder of the IP connection I think you could drive the probability of fining an innocent to very low values.
The potential problems with IP tracking come from many people, even households, using the same wifi router. So beyond that router, you can't necessarily tell for sure who exactly used it for the illegitimate purposes, unless the owner of the router knows, or the router logs can reveal that.

So yes, it may be hard to pinpoint exactly who in the vicinity of the router used the connection for hazy dealings. That's what the court (or police) would then have to decide, is there even a case to prosecute anyone.

The other theoretical possibility is that someone had left his wifi open (unsecured), and e.g. neighbor was using the connection all that time for pirating stuff. But nowadays routers are secured by default, and even if they weren't, it doesn't take long for police to check up on neighbors as well.

There was this kind of case here in Finland before, someone was doing something illegal (possibly sending life-threatening emails to someone or something like that, I don't recall), by using his neighbors open wifi connection without his consent. At first the police questioned that owner of the wifi router, but it didn't take long for them to track it to a neighbor.

That's a bit like someone stealing your car, and running over some pedestrian with it. First the cops might come to question you (as you are the owner of the car), but then they'd move on to finding out who was it exactly that used the car at a given time. In fact, if your car is not stolen, you as the car owner might be considered responsible if you had loaned it to someone who has gotten a speeding ticket from a speed camera. So if they can't tell who was driving the car, you as the car owner would have to pay the ticket.

So all in all, I personally feel that the cases of someone who is completely unrelated to the case being sued are close to nil in practice. But there may be cases where the culprit is never fully found, e.g. an university dorm where dozens of people have been using the same wifi router.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
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timppu: So if you are caught of seeding a cracked Steam game on a torrent site, you really think that showing a receipt or your Steam account details that you also own that game legitimely, gets you off the hook?

No it doesn't. Having a license to play the game didn't grant you a license to e.g. share the game to others, or sell copies of it. GOG Witcher 2 doesn't have DRM to prevent you from doing that, but that doesn't mean CDPR wouldn't come after you if you did it regardless.

Hence, treating only the criminals as criminals.

Only the customers who have chosen to share the same game on torrent sites to others, something they are not allowed to do.

I have never shared Witcher 2 on any torrent site, hence I haven't received any legal mail from a CDPR. If I had, I would have told them that they are mistaken, and they should recheck the ISP logs.

It doesn't matter, because owning a license to the game will probably not be considered as mitigating circumstances in court when you are accused of sharing a game illegally to others.
you do know that i have never talked about sharing your game, but playing a unlicensed copy (or a licensed one...) The rest is you inventions. You are very good at taking bits and pieces and applying it to something which may be related but is not the same as being talked about.
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amok: you do know that i have never talked about sharing your game, but playing a unlicensed copy (or a licensed one...)
Then why are you even mentioning the case of CDPR going after The Witcher 2 pirates?

You don't seem to have a faintest idea how pirates (of games, music, movies or whatever digital media) are hunted down. It has absolutely nothing to do tracking the usage of that media, but sharing of it on torrent sites etc.
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timppu: I definitely prefer the service that doesn't treat all its customers as potential criminals.
Just a sidequestion here, not a serious argument.

But at least over here in my country, practically every store has these, detectors' when walking in and out of the store. You need to walk through them to get in and out of the store. And on occasion, they even go off when they shouldn't, either because something bought in the store wasn't demagnitized properly, or something unrelated triggers it.

Does that qualify as treating your customers as criminals as well?
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amok: you do know that i have never talked about sharing your game, but playing a unlicensed copy (or a licensed one...)
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timppu: Then why are you even mentioning the case of CDPR going after The Witcher 2 pirates?

You don't seem to have a faintest idea how pirates (of games, music, movies or whatever digital media) are hunted down. It has absolutely nothing to do tracking the usage of that media, but sharing of it on torrent sites etc.
Yes, and in this case they also target downloaders, but for some reason you only talk about uploaders. We keep talking on cross purposes here, we tend to do, this is pointless. I'm not going to bother anymore. I am tired of getting whatever I say twisted into something else.
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timppu: Then why are you even mentioning the case of CDPR going after The Witcher 2 pirates?

You don't seem to have a faintest idea how pirates (of games, music, movies or whatever digital media) are hunted down. It has absolutely nothing to do tracking the usage of that media, but sharing of it on torrent sites etc.
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amok: Yes, and in this case they also target downloaders, but for some reason you only talk about uploaders.
In the case of torrents, they are usually one and the same, as by default every torrent downloader is already uploading bits and pieces to others, already before their own download is finished. That's exactly what makes p2p technology so fast for mass delivery, and e.g. Humble Indie Bundle asks you to use the torrent download option instead of the direct HIB server links.

However, if the legal firm had been targetting also people who were only downloading, and not sharing at all, then it depends completely if mere downloading of the data is considered illegal in said country. I think the case happened in Germany, so is mere downloading (not sharing) of pirated digital media and games considered illegal in Germany?

If it is, then the legal firm had a case. If not, then they didn't have. As simple as that. Then again, I'd be very surprised if they had targeted people who only downloaded, if that isn't even illegal in the first place. It isn't hard to filter out those who don't share the game. But as soon as you upload even one bit of the data to others, you are sharing the copyrighted material as well.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
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timppu: I definitely prefer the service that doesn't treat all its customers as potential criminals.
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Pheace: Just a sidequestion here, not a serious argument.

But at least over here in my country, practically every store has these, detectors' when walking in and out of the store. You need to walk through them to get in and out of the store. And on occasion, they even go off when they shouldn't, either because something bought in the store wasn't demagnitized properly, or something unrelated triggers it.

Does that qualify as treating your customers as criminals as well?
Yes you could say that. So as I said before, if some store's detector keeps falsely alarming quite often when I go in and out of fhe store and I keep getting groped because of that, or otherwise causes me inconvenience for either buying or especially _using_ the product I have bought from there, I would take my business elsewhere. I would look for a detection-free store. Some others may choose to disregard the detectors, even if they gave them false alarms every now and then.

But since we are talking about DRM beyond just the purchasing process, a better analogy would be that the product you bought from the store would keep scanning even at your home whether you are still the legitime user of it, and sometimes give loud false alarms at your home in the middle of the night.

So in that sense, I don't mind GOG checking if my credit card is valid while I am buying a game from their store, because it doesn't affect the usage of that product thereafter. Just like the detectors on the store door don't.

By the way, are you sure you are now not defending DRM? Considering you seem to be so hypersensitive to the term "pro-DRM"? :)
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
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timppu: By the way, are you sure you are now not defending DRM? Considering you seem to be so hypersensitive to the term "pro-DRM"? :)
Apart from you mentioning it just now, where are you implying I was being 'so hypersensitive' about the term "pro-DRM"?