You only mentioned high lvl loot, you didn't mention the other part of my statement, the huge risk that going into high lvl areas in games without scaling really is. Skyrim is a fundamentally easy game, you have to actively try to get yourself killed, so the risk part of my statement stands. So while the good part of "exploration" in Skyrim might stand, the rewards, the bad part stands because enemies are just too easy.

In fact Skyrim is so easy I think Bethsoft would of probably taken death out of the game entirely if they could.

I guaradamntee you, going against a enemy 25+ levels above you IS risky. And stop playing on adept difficulty if it's to easy.

Still, that is only your personal views, I think they are rather limited and narrow minded, and I do not agree at all. I also do not see how the rest of my post about choice was about cosmetics.

According to Bethesda Skyrim will still need Steam but the other games will not.

Gothic II is an easy example off-hand. Early in the game you get the option of signing on as an apprentice hunter, alchemist or blacksmith, each of which has its own tasks to complete and skills to learn. The game also recognises job-related player actions during the apprenticeship, e.g. selling animal pelts is done through a dedicated conversation option (rather than the standard trade menu) and he will comment on the individual types of animal pelts brought to him. He also pays more gold than any other trader, but only if you are his apprentice.

You can't really spend the whole game doing one of these jobs full-time (the main quest centres around saving the world, after all) but the game does mechanically recognise and reward relevant player actions performed as part of the active apprenticeship.

The problem with this approach is that it's inherently limited. You can only be what the game allows you to be, as opposed to being what you want to be. While I agree that it would be amazing if a game allowed you to be what you want to be and reacted accordingly, but sadly, technology is not there yet, so we have two choices:
- Limit the player and react properly
- Give the player a sandbox and let him pretend

Now both of these approaches are actually succesful. As for which one of the is the RPG way ... I really could't care less.

How does that make him wrong? It is a positive example of mob placing in Skyrim and Morrowind. This is what makes Morrowind and Skyrim better than Oblivion! You just argued against scaling yourself! I suspected this all along, nobody really likes scaling, and you are just defending your favourite games.

Sounds unbelievably boring, because there is no danger, you KNOW that you can kill everything you meet anywhere in such a game. And you KNOW that you can never find anything really good, because it is scaled. Thats not even mentioning that improving your chars is totally pointless.

No, you wanted to do quest wherever you want, you wanted to go to all the cities. You can do that in MM6, you can use the stables travelling service or run past monster groups. You can explore all you want. But what you cant do, or not easily, is to just kill any monster you see everywhere.

What, that doesn't even make sense. And now we are back to the "well thats just like uhh your opinion, man" (insert lebowski pic). Just stop trolling and you wont be insulted. And you were looking to get some insults in that thread. Why else would you post in a totally different discussion that you love DRM if done right.

Thanks Arkose, was just hoping for a steam free Skyrim.

Why? Scaling done right can still be challenging. Who says bosses can't scale with you. Who says that mobs in one cave can not be scaled to be 1.5 levels above yours, or even 10 levels. The point being when I enter that cave at level 1 the mobs are at 1.5, or 11, if you enter it at level 20 they are 21.5 or 31. You need to improve your char and have the right equipment to deal with it no matter which level you enter, it will be a challenge. What I find tedious is entering a cave I forgot later on at level 10 and there is only level 1 rats there... especially if it is quest related. I do not find that very challenging at all.

There is several reasons to enter these caves - gear scale with you, so you need to to get better gear. If you do not you will level out of it, and considering that mobs levels scales with you, you will need to. Narrative reasons, quests leads you there, a hint in a book, promises of a reward. Curiosity, it looks interesting - wonder what is inside. Those are all the reasons I need.

So you didn't say this:
Half of the discussion is about you pretending that what you're saying is the ultimate truth. So no, we have never actually departed from 'well thats just like uhh your opinion, man'

I made a remark to show that technology or approach by itself don't matter, what matters is how it is realized and implemented. Fairly relevant to the discussion back then and to the discussion now, don't you think? Don't play stupid with me here, there's no way you didn't get what I meant from that post.

Walter, wtf are you talking about? Just love your level scaled, DRM ridden games with lots of QTEs and leave the good old gamers alone.

So don't go in there. In an unscaled world you will have much more interesting places to go to.

... and then, once you run out of arguments, you start attacking. Well, off to the ignore bag with you.

As Fenixp pointed out but yes it is. It came out in 2002 around Morrowind. Leaving TES out, that's a pretty short list for more than a decade.... yet some trying to argue that this is inherently wrong and shouldn't be? I'd vote against that anytime.

How many times you'll keep pulling that one? Nobody claimed Oblivion did it right. Absolutely nobody. Not in this thread, not in the other one. But you keep getting back to it like a broken record.
Just because Oblivion did it wrong, doesn't mean it has to be wrong in every other game too. But that's exactly your claim, time and time again.

That may be for you, it does work for others and guess what? We're back at different play styles / approaches, all over again. Only that there's a very limited list (see above) offering that and you consider it lazy design / horribad / whatever. Just play the games fitting your approach more and let us play those we enjoy more.

And no, you can find good stuff even there, as pointed out (again) above and what you called a good example (compared with Oblivion) in the very same post.... .... .. W.T.F?

And what reason do you have getting into those high-lvl areas, besides gettin' shiny loot? About none. Maybe a standard quest that you might as well do 10 hours later, as it doesn't provide anything else than xp or more loot.

While in Skyrim you have questlines from a wide array of possibilities, be it guilds / factions / followers, that you either balance at least somewhat to the players level or restrict him progressing that way.

Better yet - don't play the game? (especially if it part of the quest chain, better abandon it then). It have happened to me, that I needed to clear low level areas to progress the narrative. I have no choice then. But level walls have never been about choice anyway, it is narratively driven (restrictions, channeling and funneling). Which is fine if this is what you are after in a RPG, and it can be good if it is done well. But I am glad that there is also other types of RPG's out there when that approach becomes tedious, and I want to play differently. Choice is good.

I have no problems with you preferring channeling and narrative RPG's, many people do, but many people also like open sandbox RPG's also. Just because you prefer one type personally, it does not mean the other is somewhat "lesser", it is just not for you. Just beacuse you personaly do not like level scaling, does not mean that it works and many other players like to play games with it, when it is done right. Level scaling is more difficult to implement.
Since you ignored everything else, I assume you agree, good, that's out of the way at least then :)

I assure you, that's not agreeing, just his common practice. He even ignores points HE made 5 sentences before....