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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 24, 2014
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Thorn is living proof of what happens when abortion is illegal.
Posted January 24, 2014
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kalirion: I'm convinced now, ThoRn is an elaborate troll.
Wrong! Trolls make an argument and leave it to others to argue over. I've been here arguing my point of view from the start. That doesn't make me a troll. I'm sorry I'm not able to keep up with everyone as I'm pretty much a loner on my views and responding to everyone is impossible.

It IS funny to see all these atheists all sharpening their pitchforks and claiming, "burn the witch" when talking about me. LOL! Oh the irony of it is quite amusing!
Posted January 24, 2014
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kalirion: I'm convinced now, ThoRn is an elaborate troll.
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ThoRn: Wrong! Trolls make an argument and leave it to others to argue over. I've been here arguing my point of view from the start. That doesn't make me a troll. I'm sorry I'm not able to keep up with everyone as I'm pretty much a loner on my views and responding to everyone is impossible.

It IS funny to see all these atheists all sharpening their pitchforks and claiming, "burn the witch" when talking about me. LOL! Oh the irony of it is quite amusing!
You're burning your rep score all by yourself.
Posted January 24, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Thorn is living proof of what happens when abortion is illegal.
Now you're resorting to low blow personal attacks I see. The sign of defeat if I ever saw it.
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ThoRn: Wrong! Trolls make an argument and leave it to others to argue over. I've been here arguing my point of view from the start. That doesn't make me a troll. I'm sorry I'm not able to keep up with everyone as I'm pretty much a loner on my views and responding to everyone is impossible.

It IS funny to see all these atheists all sharpening their pitchforks and claiming, "burn the witch" when talking about me. LOL! Oh the irony of it is quite amusing!
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pimpmonkey2382: You're burning your rep score all by yourself.
Fuck rep score! Would rather fight for my pride and honor even if it was the death of me than be a sheep with a high rep score!
Post edited January 24, 2014 by ThoRn
Posted January 24, 2014
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QC: Why do atheist have morals? Because humans long ago decided that hurting other humans is a dickish way to go about things. Oh, but religious worlds far back, for the past thousands of years have waged wars against other nations, other cultures, other religions for all of Humanity. They killed to serve their country. They killed to serve their gods and bring glory to their gods. The reason why we don't have that today is the world is more inter-reliant and we've come to accept cultural differences, including religious difference. A tribe does not destroy itself when it is surviving reasonably. That's regardless of religion or society.
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ThoRn: Bullshit! You got you moral values from the same source I did. Your parents who were probably religious or their parents were before them and the morals were passed on from parent to child. Ever seen the movie Greystoke about the boy who was shipwrecked on an island with a bunch of chimps? The chimps raised him and years later when he was found as a grown man, he acted like a chimp. They brought him back to his families estate in the UK but he couldn't adapt to civilized society after lots of efforts to educate him and change him. But he still acted out on his chimpish ways from time to time until it was decided he needed to go back to the island and be set free with the chimps that raised him. If you had grown up with no moral religious teachings you'd adapt to the world on your own or by whoever or whatever decided to raise you, be it apes or chimps, or whatever. It's easy for you to claim that the world would have been so perfect without religion and that religion is the root of all evil when that's not true. It's the very thing that's brought people together under a set of values and customs.
Probably the first time you've actually replied to me. Guess what, humans don't need laws set upon them to act. Fucking babies will act to aid a person and act in a moral way, and anything you to say to them sounds like the same babble they speak. Can you honestly say that from day one you're teaching an infant that it's good to help a person, that it's bad to stab someone?

Since you're looking at chimps, let's look at chimps: Chimps form tribes. Chimps kill one another from different tribes. They form societies that involve a monetary system involving food, grooming and sex and have an understanding of injustice and inequality. They don't have religion. So while we can't say chimps obey all your biblical laws they obviously act in a way to benefit their group as a whole, instead of murdering, raping, pillaging from every single other monkey around them. So, that's another against that argument.

Next up, let's look at humans, since that's the whole concept after all: What came first, religion or the tribe? It would have to be the tribe. If you have a religion of one, it will never last very long. Okay, then what's the point of a tribe? They act in a way to support the whole. Hunting, foraging, beer brewing, what have you, that comes from the need to survive. Imagine if Cain and Abel were not with farm or animal, they were forced to forage, to hunt. They are two, two people able to hunt, to gather. Why do they both live? Because they act in interest of the whole. If you kill one, the other is much less likely to survive. The same thing extends to a full tribe. Farmers, hunters, foragers, more people to support, but more that can work, more that can hunt, and farm, and gather, enough that you can dedicate people to do things other than hunt, and farm, and gather, such as cooking, crafting, early medicine. Religion doesn't have to tell you all of that.
Posted January 24, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Thorn is living proof of what happens when abortion is illegal.
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ThoRn: Now you're resorting to low blow personal attacks I see. The sign of defeat if I ever saw it.
That wasn't a personal attack, more of an observation.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: Bullshit! You got you moral values from the same source I did. Your parents who were probably religious or their parents were before them and the morals were passed on from parent to child. Ever seen the movie Greystoke about the boy who was shipwrecked on an island with a bunch of chimps? The chimps raised him and years later when he was found as a grown man, he acted like a chimp. They brought him back to his families estate in the UK but he couldn't adapt to civilized society after lots of efforts to educate him and change him. But he still acted out on his chimpish ways from time to time until it was decided he needed to go back to the island and be set free with the chimps that raised him. If you had grown up with no moral religious teachings you'd adapt to the world on your own or by whoever or whatever decided to raise you, be it apes or chimps, or whatever. It's easy for you to claim that the world would have been so perfect without religion and that religion is the root of all evil when that's not true. It's the very thing that's brought people together under a set of values and customs.
Still doesn't determine if religion is cause or consequence.
Imagine this: long time ago a wise guy decides that it's wrong that people are assholes to each other. He wants people to behave, so:
- He can tell them to behave just because.
- He can tell them to behave, because there is an allmighty being that will reward them for behaving and punish for misbehaving.
The second option works better - there is an element of punishment, an elemet of reward and something to fulfill spiritual needs \ explain things they can't explain using their cognitive aparatus.
So, religion is good (if the rules it's based on are good), it's useful (again, if the rules are good, it's useful for everybody involved) but it doesn't have to be true.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: It IS funny to see all these atheists all sharpening their pitchforks and claiming, "burn the witch" when talking about me. LOL! Oh the irony of it is quite amusing!
A total of one person said anything close to "burn the witch", the most others have said is "a person like you does not deserve the paradise you desperately want to believe in". Don't turn yourself into a martyr, I don't care how popular it is.
Posted January 24, 2014
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cjrgreen: Even allowing for that, the number of direct descendants of males in the immediate family of Genghis Khan is something extraordinary.

What is invariably overlooked by those who deny the credibility of evolution is that organized religion is itself a tool that powerful men use to force women to bear children for men who use the tools of the religion to control them. As such, it would be an evolutionarily stable strategy par excellence if there were shown to be any kind of inherited foundation for it.

Who needs rape when you can accomplish the same purpose by making submission and reproduction into religious obligations?
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hedwards: Failing that, even just barring effective birth control does the trick. Like it or not, most women like sex, at least enough to have it a dozen or so times during a life time. Which means that they could relatively easily be unlucky enough to get pregnant a quarter or a third of the time. And that's assuming they're settling for just a dozen times.

In practice, I suspect that the number of times one has sex before becoming pregnant is probably lower and the number of times those women have sex is higher.

Seems odd to me that so many people buy into the notion that God would require people to not use birth control and not provide some reasonable method of preventing pregnancy. Especially seeing as unwanted pregnancy is a huge reason why poverty exists in some segments of the population. Unwanted children and inadequate social support.
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jamotide: Really? Where do you get this from the bible? All it says is do not rape virgins, who are betrothed, because it would be like stealing property from another man. The rest of the women are fair game. And in war it is highly encouraged. So I ask you, how did you get morality DESPITE being religious?
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hedwards: I wonder sometimes if these people have ever actually read the Bible. Personally, I try not to covet my neighbor's oxen, because having sex with sheep is probably less dangerous.
Poverty will always exists no matter how many babies you kill. As long as there's a rich class there has to be a poor class. Stop making up bullshit excuses to murder innocent babies.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: Now you're resorting to low blow personal attacks I see. The sign of defeat if I ever saw it.
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pimpmonkey2382: That wasn't a personal attack, more of an observation.
I will call it too far anyway. Threads get shut down when you start getting into stuff like that.
Posted January 24, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: That wasn't a personal attack, more of an observation.
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QC: I will call it too far anyway. Threads get shut down when you start getting into stuff like that.
Well, I wouldn't be against this thread being closed. No one will be able to cure ThoRn's ignorance on this issue, unless the bible somehow told him to convert to atheist and also explained evolution to him in terms he can understand.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: Bullshit! You got you moral values from the same source I did. Your parents who were probably religious or their parents were before them and the morals were passed on from parent to child. Ever seen the movie Greystoke about the boy who was shipwrecked on an island with a bunch of chimps? The chimps raised him and years later when he was found as a grown man, he acted like a chimp. They brought him back to his families estate in the UK but he couldn't adapt to civilized society after lots of efforts to educate him and change him. But he still acted out on his chimpish ways from time to time until it was decided he needed to go back to the island and be set free with the chimps that raised him. If you had grown up with no moral religious teachings you'd adapt to the world on your own or by whoever or whatever decided to raise you, be it apes or chimps, or whatever. It's easy for you to claim that the world would have been so perfect without religion and that religion is the root of all evil when that's not true. It's the very thing that's brought people together under a set of values and customs.
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pimpmonkey2382: It's what you're taught and that doesn't require religion one iota.
But it was originally taught from religion. Religion established the moral values that we all follow today.
Posted January 24, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: It's what you're taught and that doesn't require religion one iota.
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ThoRn: But it was originally taught from religion. Religion established the moral values that we all follow today.
Then how do you explain us not killing each other off completely before religion existed?
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: Poverty will always exists (...). As long as there's a rich class there has to be a poor class.
You mentioned marxism some time ago. This quote sounds like taken straight from Marx' books.
Post edited January 24, 2014 by Novotnus
Posted January 24, 2014
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QC: I will call it too far anyway. Threads get shut down when you start getting into stuff like that.
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pimpmonkey2382: Well, I wouldn't be against this thread being closed. No one will be able to cure ThoRn's ignorance on this issue, unless the bible somehow told him to convert to atheist and also explained evolution to him in terms he can understand.
You want the thread shut down because you got nothing left. You're resorting to personal attacks now. You've shown by resorting to low blow personal attacks that I've managed to get under your skin. They don't call me "Thorn" for nothing. I'm a thorn in your ass! You've been bested by me. Admit it!
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)