And there were (and still are) Jews that converted to Christianity convinced that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecies. The majority of the Early Church were Jews.


There are too many to go into here (I've read that there are over 100) but its enough for me that the prophecies predict the time and place of birth and the manner of His death.

As a Christian, I can look at some religions and say yes they got this or that correct. But since an Atheist does not believe in the existence of God - they have to take the grounds that ALL religions are incorrect. Being impartial - Which of the two strikes you as being arrogant?

Not just Abrahamic. Hinduism <> Buddhism <> Confucianism

Well what do you want me to say to that? Proselytization (or lack of) doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.

Miracles suppose the existence of God.

Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory.
Don't believe at face value what any preacher says. The test is whether it is in the Holy Bible or not. (Also see Acts 17:11)
Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

out of the list mentioned - they either don't exist in any holy text I have read or they do but they are not compulsory. When defaming the holy text of any religion, it would help to include book, chapter and verse, so people can check for themselves whether it is really in there or not. (Otherwise if you have never read the book, you could have picked up a false impression and are basing your attack on that)
Does it offend you?

"Miracles suppose the existence of God."

Language limitations only proof that we can communicate "barely" and put names to the things, interpretation is not a fact. Period.

"Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory."

Maybe you readed the script of "Monty Python and the HOLY grial"

About homosexuality: "Sodom and Gommorah" knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

About circumcision: "And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant ... every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations ... And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that should shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant."

About Burkas: The Koran has different opinions about the Burka itself, but is pretty clear about fearing the women's bodies "One verse states: "O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them when they go out or are among men."
However, the issue is complicated by the fact that Muslims are given further guidance on religious law by three other sources.
Partly as a result there are a variety of recommendations to followers, each dependent upon a different scholarly interpretation.
According to mainstream tradition, the only parts of a woman's body that should be visible to strangers are her hands, feet and face. The strictest Muslims believe, however, that women should wear the burka, a shroud that covers the whole body with just a slit for the eyes."

And about condoms I guess I don't need to remember where the word " ONANISM" comes from, right???

But yeah, for some Christians not even the inquisition existed... also is pretty clear that God, that unique and of course THE REAL one included in one of your many THE REAL ONE religions you have, seems to worry about pretty weird, primitive, and obtuse things...

Seems to me a very very very small, short minded, and stupid GOD or GODs

Couldn't have put it better - on both points.

Quote: "Tremendous harm has been done in the name of religion. But then more people have been murdered in the last century by those who loved to hate religion, than in all of the religious wars in the whole of history, and then some! Stalin, consistent with most Communist programmes, was fiercely atheistic, and Hitler, with his hatred for religious authority, killed more over 30 million people between them. We can then add a couple of million people who died due to the brutality of Pol Pot. What about the number of people killed by Mao Tse Tung? Estimates vary between 40 to 80 million or ever more, but it's impossible to calculate accurately because he deliberately starved so many people. No matter how many times people repeat the mantra 'religion is the cause of most wars and violence', the facts of history tell a different story.

Mao and Stalin were not merely killers who happened to be atheists. The atheistic philosophy of twentieth-century Communism provided the excuse. They had a desire to eliminate religion and felt no problem with destroying human life, as they believed they were accountable to no moral authority higher than themselves." unquote.

you haven't provided the book, chapter & verse of each of the holy texts in question.

Circumcision is optional (as you would know if you read the New Testament. See Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, Colossians 3:9-11, Romans 2:28-29 and more)

The word Burqa is not mentioned (nor described) in the Koran nor are condoms mentioned (or described) in the Old Testament.

In any case, whether you or I agree or not on the laws written doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.

DRM-free guy,
While not a Christian, I can only warn you of the snake pit you have just stepped into. Tread carefully. You have my sympathies.

I didn't think any such thing.

I had no intentions of doing so. I was pointing out that some atheists like to attack religion on this very basis.


I continue the quote:
"So what do I say to this? 'Oooh, all those horrible atheists. That does it! I'm turning my back on atheism and going off to join a religion!'
The way I see it, it would be as foolish to use Stalin and Mao as 'evidence' against atheism as it would be to conclude anything against religion because of abuses in religion...

...But in the end nothing is proved.
God is not going to exist simply because people believe there is a God, or think they have a need to believe in something. Neither will God cease to exist simply because you or I think there is no need or reason to believe in a God.

...let's get away from prejudging - from deciding beforehand what we want or don't want to believe, and try to get to the facts.'

The only point is that having people kill in the name of religion means nothing as to the existence or not of God. How can you not understand such a simple point?

Yes

John Ch 10 v30-33

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Also see Matthew Ch 16 v13-20 (also Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; John 6:66-71)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Would be definitively better that you will make understand this simple point to your own people, and among other "believers" of that other "gods" out there. I don't use to kill people in the name of any deity or atheism.

I didn't notice anyone here accusing you of doing so.

And you are still missing the point - whether some people kill in the name of religion or atheism fails to prove or disprove the existence of God.

1) We all know about Sodoma
2) Jews or mouslims doesn't care about the New Testament, so again thinking your religion is the ONLY and CORRECT one right? LOL
3) There are many words related to the burqa in the Koran hijab is one of them, but I already said that the burqa is not named perse in the Koran, but it is pretty clear that they are, again, afraid of the woman sexuality. Onan is the reason for not "waste" sperm, obviously condoms doesnt exist 2000 years ago, right? Again, hilarious. "Condoms doesn't appear in the bible" LOL

4) It proves that YOUR god is as false as the Greek Gods, if not more. THE god, if IT exists, definitively never talked with no one of your prophets, because that three books taken as facts and realities, are as ridiculous as a Lord of The Rings fan, claiming that Gandalf talks to him every night...

There is. History is made up of "events". And the universe cant have an infinite number of events in its past; it must have had a beginning.


Well if you can believe in the first, why do you object to believing in the second?

Correct and no magic required! :D

Aristotles "Unmoved Mover"

A Creator who made all things (including time).


To recap:

1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.