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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 26, 2014
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DRM_free_fan: @ Elmofongo - While I'd like to reply to your PM, you have blocked receiving private mesages.
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Elmofongo: I thought I blocked only messages from GOG itself like I don't want news from updates like "Hey there is a sale on GOG games now"

I will just write what I said in messages here:

From what I heard there are still jews that does not recognize Jesus or the new testament because they think Jesus has not properly fufilled the Messianic Prophocies correctly.
And there were (and still are) Jews that converted to Christianity convinced that Jesus fulfilled Messianic prophecies. The majority of the Early Church were Jews.


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Elmofongo: What are the exact propheices and how is it that Judism thinks he did not fufill them properly?
There are too many to go into here (I've read that there are over 100) but its enough for me that the prophecies predict the time and place of birth and the manner of His death.

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Elmofongo: As to why I hold the idea the Abrahamic Faiths are arrogant in there belief that the Abrahamic God is the True real God disregard thousands of cultures faiths and God/gods as false.
As a Christian, I can look at some religions and say yes they got this or that correct. But since an Atheist does not believe in the existence of God - they have to take the grounds that ALL religions are incorrect. Being impartial - Which of the two strikes you as being arrogant?

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Elmofongo: Since you say non Abrahamic Faiths don't agree with Abrahamic than I see.
Not just Abrahamic. Hinduism <> Buddhism <> Confucianism

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Elmofongo: But the Abrahamic Faith is the only faith I am aware of that does commit proselytization on other societies. Not once have I heard of a Buddhist, Shinto, or Hindu, or any other faiths atttempt to convert other people
Well what do you want me to say to that? Proselytization (or lack of) doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: Anyone that thinks that if God exists, can explain his or HER or ITS will with a "Bible" or "Coram" or "Tora" or whatever... should look around, and pay attention to the Cosmos, and check how big is the universe, and how many miracles are out there and even inside us all the f... time
Miracles suppose the existence of God.

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YaTEdiGo: to start thinking that all the bullshit in that books has zero options of being truth... more when GOD, supposed creator of the universe, tell you that women need to be covered by burkas, or that you need to circumcised, that you cannot use condoms, or that if you are gay you will go to hell, or limbo, etc, etc, etc...

In this small pale blue dot of dust in the middle of a huge almost infinite universe these stupid things are very important to the Creator of the Universe itself, YEAH SURE... is SO RIDICULOUS that I wonder how people can still believe that children fairy tales.
Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory.
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Tallima: There's a prolific preacher (I forget which one) that firmly believes that all of the zombie movies/games/culture is specifically the work of the devil so that people will distrust the resurrected in Christ.
Don't believe at face value what any preacher says. The test is whether it is in the Holy Bible or not. (Also see Acts 17:11)
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Elmofongo: Exactly when you look at how small we are compared to this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Earth%27s_Location_in_the_Universe_%28JPEG%29.jpg

Wbat makes us so special.
Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Post edited November 26, 2014 by DRM_free_fan
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: more when GOD, supposed creator of the universe, tell you that women need to be covered by burkas, or that you need to circumcised, that you cannot use condoms, or that if you are gay you will go to hell, or limbo, etc, etc, etc...
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ET3D: Many things aren't really written in the scriptures, but are later interpretations and added rules. It's obvious that it can't be that all believers in God are right, but that doesn't immediately mean that God couldn't have given laws to people to live by. Also the bible laws should be judged according to their time period. They haven't been adapted to our modern times, but I don't think that's God's fault.

I'm not trying to claim or convince that God does exist, but I don't think that just having laws such as you mentioned precludes His existence.
out of the list mentioned - they either don't exist in any holy text I have read or they do but they are not compulsory. When defaming the holy text of any religion, it would help to include book, chapter and verse, so people can check for themselves whether it is really in there or not. (Otherwise if you have never read the book, you could have picked up a false impression and are basing your attack on that)
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Fenixp: ... How did this thread happen again?
Does it offend you?
Post edited November 26, 2014 by DRM_free_fan
Posted November 26, 2014
"Miracles suppose the existence of God."

Language limitations only proof that we can communicate "barely" and put names to the things, interpretation is not a fact. Period.

"Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory."

Maybe you readed the script of "Monty Python and the HOLY grial"

About homosexuality: "Sodom and Gommorah" knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

About circumcision: "And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant ... every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations ... And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that should shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant."

About Burkas: The Koran has different opinions about the Burka itself, but is pretty clear about fearing the women's bodies "One verse states: "O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them when they go out or are among men."
However, the issue is complicated by the fact that Muslims are given further guidance on religious law by three other sources.
Partly as a result there are a variety of recommendations to followers, each dependent upon a different scholarly interpretation.
According to mainstream tradition, the only parts of a woman's body that should be visible to strangers are her hands, feet and face. The strictest Muslims believe, however, that women should wear the burka, a shroud that covers the whole body with just a slit for the eyes."

And about condoms I guess I don't need to remember where the word " ONANISM" comes from, right???

But yeah, for some Christians not even the inquisition existed... also is pretty clear that God, that unique and of course THE REAL one included in one of your many THE REAL ONE religions you have, seems to worry about pretty weird, primitive, and obtuse things...

Seems to me a very very very small, short minded, and stupid GOD or GODs
Post edited November 26, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: I bet you believe there is sense on what you are saying, I am not sorry that I cannot agree. Which laws are "emailed" to this distant, small, insignificant point of dust in the Universe? Even if God will care about everything, just pointing first that it exist, and second that CARES, because God probably could also DON' T care... Use condoms? Not be gay? Burn the red haired people for being a Witch? Kill the infidels? Burn Scientists for saying the Earth is not the center of the universe? Cover women on clothes? Abusing Children? Go to "holy" War?
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ET3D: You clearly didn't understand what I said. You're confusing several matters: whether God could exist, whether God would care, and whether God would say things such as these.

Thinking about it, it's possible that you simply have no idea what the scriptures say, so while it's easy for you to lash at religion, at what people have done in its name, it's based on ignorance. I'm not an expert either, but I think I'm less biased.
Couldn't have put it better - on both points.

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ET3D: People have done, and continue to do, evil things regardless of religion. The greatest senseless killings of millions of people in the 20th century, which beat everything ever done in the name of religion, were done by rulers who were decidedly anti-religion.
Quote: "Tremendous harm has been done in the name of religion. But then more people have been murdered in the last century by those who loved to hate religion, than in all of the religious wars in the whole of history, and then some! Stalin, consistent with most Communist programmes, was fiercely atheistic, and Hitler, with his hatred for religious authority, killed more over 30 million people between them. We can then add a couple of million people who died due to the brutality of Pol Pot. What about the number of people killed by Mao Tse Tung? Estimates vary between 40 to 80 million or ever more, but it's impossible to calculate accurately because he deliberately starved so many people. No matter how many times people repeat the mantra 'religion is the cause of most wars and violence', the facts of history tell a different story.

Mao and Stalin were not merely killers who happened to be atheists. The atheistic philosophy of twentieth-century Communism provided the excuse. They had a desire to eliminate religion and felt no problem with destroying human life, as they believed they were accountable to no moral authority higher than themselves." unquote.
Posted November 26, 2014
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ET3D: You clearly didn't understand what I said. You're confusing several matters: whether God could exist, whether God would care, and whether God would say things such as these.

Thinking about it, it's possible that you simply have no idea what the scriptures say, so while it's easy for you to lash at religion, at what people have done in its name, it's based on ignorance. I'm not an expert either, but I think I'm less biased.
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DRM_free_fan: Couldn't have put it better - on both points.

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ET3D: People have done, and continue to do, evil things regardless of religion. The greatest senseless killings of millions of people in the 20th century, which beat everything ever done in the name of religion, were done by rulers who were decidedly anti-religion.
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DRM_free_fan: Quote: "Tremendous harm has been done in the name of religion. But then more people have been murdered in the last century by those who loved to hate religion, than in all of the religious wars in the whole of history, and then some! Stalin, consistent with most Communist programmes, was fiercely atheistic, and Hitler, with his hatred for religious authority, killed more over 30 million people between them. We can then add a couple of million people who died due to the brutality of Pol Pot. What about the number of people killed by Mao Tse Tung? Estimates vary between 40 to 80 million or ever more, but it's impossible to calculate accurately because he deliberately starved so many people. No matter how many times people repeat the mantra 'religion is the cause of most wars and violence', the facts of history tell a different story.

Mao and Stalin were not merely killers who happened to be atheists. The atheistic philosophy of twentieth-century Communism provided the excuse. They had a desire to eliminate religion and felt no problem with destroying human life, as they believed they were accountable to no moral authority higher than themselves." unquote.
LOL, you must think I am a fan of Mao for living in China, this is so hilarious... x_D

Don't wash the hands of criminals with the blood of other criminals, that is a really bad way to escape the sins of your own "real and unique" religions, that use to kill not only who is different, but even who brings good and knowledge to the world.
Post edited November 26, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: "Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory."

Maybe you readed the script of "Monty Python and the HOLY grial"
you haven't provided the book, chapter & verse of each of the holy texts in question.

Circumcision is optional (as you would know if you read the New Testament. See Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, Colossians 3:9-11, Romans 2:28-29 and more)

The word Burqa is not mentioned (nor described) in the Koran nor are condoms mentioned (or described) in the Old Testament.

In any case, whether you or I agree or not on the laws written doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.
Posted November 26, 2014
DRM-free guy,
While not a Christian, I can only warn you of the snake pit you have just stepped into. Tread carefully. You have my sympathies.
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: LOL, you must think I am a fan of Mao for living in China, this is so hilarious... x_D
I didn't think any such thing.

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YaTEdiGo: Don't wash the hands of criminals with the blood of other criminals, that is a really bad way to escape the sins of your own "real and unique" religions, that use to kill not only who is different, but even who brings good and knowledge to the world.
I had no intentions of doing so. I was pointing out that some atheists like to attack religion on this very basis.


I continue the quote:
"So what do I say to this? 'Oooh, all those horrible atheists. That does it! I'm turning my back on atheism and going off to join a religion!'
The way I see it, it would be as foolish to use Stalin and Mao as 'evidence' against atheism as it would be to conclude anything against religion because of abuses in religion...

...But in the end nothing is proved.
God is not going to exist simply because people believe there is a God, or think they have a need to believe in something. Neither will God cease to exist simply because you or I think there is no need or reason to believe in a God.

...let's get away from prejudging - from deciding beforehand what we want or don't want to believe, and try to get to the facts.'
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: Don't wash the hands of criminals with the blood of other criminals, that is a really bad way to escape the sins of your own "real and unique" religions, that use to kill not only who is different, but even who brings good and knowledge to the world.
The only point is that having people kill in the name of religion means nothing as to the existence or not of God. How can you not understand such a simple point?
Posted November 26, 2014
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SpaceManThe: Are Jesus and God the same person?
Yes

John Ch 10 v30-33

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Also see Matthew Ch 16 v13-20 (also Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; John 6:66-71)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Post edited November 26, 2014 by DRM_free_fan
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: Don't wash the hands of criminals with the blood of other criminals, that is a really bad way to escape the sins of your own "real and unique" religions, that use to kill not only who is different, but even who brings good and knowledge to the world.
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ET3D: The only point is that having people kill in the name of religion means nothing as to the existence or not of God. How can you not understand such a simple point?
Would be definitively better that you will make understand this simple point to your own people, and among other "believers" of that other "gods" out there. I don't use to kill people in the name of any deity or atheism.
Posted November 26, 2014
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ET3D: The only point is that having people kill in the name of religion means nothing as to the existence or not of God. How can you not understand such a simple point?
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YaTEdiGo: Would be definitively better that you will make understand this simple point to your own people, and among other "believers" of that other "gods" out there. I don't use to kill people in the name of any deity or atheism.
I didn't notice anyone here accusing you of doing so.

And you are still missing the point - whether some people kill in the name of religion or atheism fails to prove or disprove the existence of God.
Posted November 26, 2014
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YaTEdiGo: "Well I don't know what books you are thinking about but out of the things you mentioned - most of them simply do not exist in any holy text I have read and the remainder are not mandatory."

Maybe you readed the script of "Monty Python and the HOLY grial"
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DRM_free_fan: you haven't provided the book, chapter & verse of each of the holy texts in question.

Circumcision is optional (as you would know if you read the New Testament. See Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:15, Colossians 3:9-11, Romans 2:28-29 and more)

The word Burqa is not mentioned (nor described) in the Koran nor are condoms mentioned (or described) in the Old Testament.

In any case, whether you or I agree or not on the laws written doesn't prove or disprove the existence of God.
1) We all know about Sodoma
2) Jews or mouslims doesn't care about the New Testament, so again thinking your religion is the ONLY and CORRECT one right? LOL
3) There are many words related to the burqa in the Koran hijab is one of them, but I already said that the burqa is not named perse in the Koran, but it is pretty clear that they are, again, afraid of the woman sexuality. Onan is the reason for not "waste" sperm, obviously condoms doesnt exist 2000 years ago, right? Again, hilarious. "Condoms doesn't appear in the bible" LOL

4) It proves that YOUR god is as false as the Greek Gods, if not more. THE god, if IT exists, definitively never talked with no one of your prophets, because that three books taken as facts and realities, are as ridiculous as a Lord of The Rings fan, claiming that Gandalf talks to him every night...
Post edited November 26, 2014 by YaTEdiGo
Posted November 26, 2014
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DRM_free_fan: It is impossible to have an infinite past. Absurdities would result if you were to have an actual infinite number of things. Since an infinite past would involve an actual infinite number of events then the universe must be finite - and therefore have a beginning.
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jamotide: Only if you assume there have been "events".
There is. History is made up of "events". And the universe cant have an infinite number of events in its past; it must have had a beginning.


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jamotide: Why can't some form of matter or energy simply always have existed? Sort of like your god, but not so complex and not so inexplainable.
Well if you can believe in the first, why do you object to believing in the second?

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DRM_free_fan: The universe is expanding. If you were to go back in time, the universe would decrease until a point where it didn't exist.
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jamotide: So your conclusion is some other thing must have always existed to which these problems magically don't apply? :D
Correct and no magic required! :D

Aristotles "Unmoved Mover"

A Creator who made all things (including time).


To recap:

1. Either the universe exists or it does not exist

2. Since the universe exists, it either had a beginning or it did not (it's eternal)

3. Since the universe had a beginning, it was either created or it was not.

4. Since nothing can come out of nothing (ex nihilo nihil fit), the universe must have been created.

5. Since a Creator exists, the Creator must be God.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)