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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 22, 2014
I just got through watching my two favorite biblical movies, "Bend-Her" and "Sodomy and Gomorrah". :D
Posted February 22, 2014
Holy posting - 1846 posts in this thread? Who knew this thread would get so enormous? Clearly not me! ;-p
Posted February 22, 2014
Since this thread is STILL going I got a question for the religious.

Why does a god need praise and worship?

Surely such an all powerful being would be above that. Only petty human beings need that. (cult leaders, "celebrities" etc. Have you ever seen the Oscars? What a circle jerk!) Why would a grand creator/overseer even need acknowledgement?
Posted February 22, 2014
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Alfie3000: Why does a god need praise and worship?
He doesn't. I worship God because He deserves to be worshiped.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by Soyeong
Posted February 23, 2014
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Soyeong: I believe that God is constantly causing the universe to exist here and now and that it would cease to exist if God ever stopped. It's like a causal series ordered per se, where a hand moves a stick, which moves a rock, which moves a leaf, and so on down the line. The hand is the primary cause and everything else in the series is a secondary cause because the causal series can't exist with out the hand. If you take away the hand, then the stick doesn't move the rock, which doesn't move leaf, and so on. In the same way, God is the primary cause of the universe.
In other words, "the concepts of reality make experience possible, our experiences do not make their underlying concepts possible."
Post edited February 23, 2014 by StickOfPlywood
Posted February 23, 2014
Don't get me wrong, there are some awesome morals and humbling reminders of our limits and mortality within the Bible, for example, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when it is they who threadeth out the corn" (Deuteronomy, 25:4) and "Shall the clay say to the one that fashioneth it, What Makest Thou?" (Isaiah, 45:9) I'd just rather consult Proverbs for philosophical guidance, rather than take the entire Testament scriptures as history.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by StickOfPlywood
Posted February 23, 2014
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Alfie3000: Why does a god need praise and worship?
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Soyeong: He doesn't. I worship God because He deserves to be worshiped.
Why does he deserve it? And if he doesn't need it then isn't it pointless?
Posted February 23, 2014
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toxicTom: Continuation from yesterday:
Sorry, I mean to reply to this sooner.
Thing is, many people would call me crazy. That is why I don't go public with my experiences. People who know me personally on the other hand could confirm some of the stories I could tell - that's how I know I'm not crazy ;-)

If you really want to know, you can PM me. But my guess is you won't believe me.
Just as it's difficult to believe that someone rose from the dead, it's difficult to believe miraculous claims, but they are too numerous and well attested to dismiss out of hand, especially the instances where they are medically documented.
First of all, all these religions are inherently misogynist. While I'm not a woman I can't accept treating half of mankind as inferior beings. The god is male (always He). The savior is male with an all male fanclub. The first human was a man. Priests are men. Most saints are men. Women brought sin and are subordinate to men.
You know that the early church tried to erase or at least "shrink" Mother Mary? They had to leave her in because people wouldn't accept a religion without a female mother goddess. Why do you think people in mass visions often see Mary and not Jesus?
While it was a patriarchal society, Jews treated women much better than surrounding societies and they had many laws in the Torah that gave protection to them. There were also many women who held important leadership roles in the early Church.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/grok558/2014/02/22/deeper-waters-women-in-the-nt
Next - they are all essentially apocalyptic death cults. Instead of encouraging people to improve THIS life for everyone they are focused on subordination, obedience and enduring "what God laid out for you" and waiting for a reward after death. Everything is centered around death, either personally or the end of the world. Christianity even perverted the powerful cross symbol, that as phallus represents the male half of life to solely an instrument of torture and death.
The focus on Christianity isn't on the death of Jesus, but on his resurrection, so it's not on death, but life.
The Old Testament's god is a murderous, cruel and power hungry deity that would not even stop at human sacrifice, rape to death and genocide. The flood or Sodom and Gomorrha: Kill them all, let God sort them out - oops, that's me?
Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because God was murderous, cruel, and power hungry, but because they were being judged for their wickedness. If there had been any righteous, then they would have been sparred. Genocide is targeting a group of people because of there ethnicity, so I'm not sure why you think God committed genocide. In fact, he targeted people because they were doing human sacrifices, among other reasons.
I also know that the christians often claim kind of new deal with Jesus. But Jesus did not once claim that things would be better with him. On the contrary he stated that the old rules still apply. Just re-read about the second coming - no trace of generosity, tolerance, well-meaning. It's obey or be punished.
When you talk about a God of love and justice, it only makes sense that He would have wrath towards those who obstructed it.
Furthermore: These religions are somatophobic. That is to be expected in death cults that rewards only the soul and sees the body as a mere vehicle. The greek, roman, norse gods at least had a lot of casual sex.
There are Gnostic teachings that the body is evil, but that is not the case with Christianity.
Posted February 23, 2014
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tinyE: I just got through watching my two favorite biblical movies, "Bend-Her" and "Sodomy and Gomorrah". :D
Do you prefer snails or oysters?
Posted February 23, 2014
This thread is still going? That's a record I think, theses usually die after about 500 posts :P. Too bad I've got some important deadlines approaching so unfortunately I won't be able to participate "properly". Still going to read through it once I'm in the safe zone (I don't think the thread is going to last another 2 months).
So just a very short reaction to what caught my eye.

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toxicTom: Most saints are men.
And yet, the greatest saint of them all is a woman :P.
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toxicTom: You know that the early church tried to erase or at least "shrink" Mother Mary? They had to leave her in because people wouldn't accept a religion without a female mother goddess.
I would really like to see a source for that. That's not the impression I got from Church Fathers. And Mary is not a goddess (despite what Jack Chick may think that the Church teaches ;)).

Apologies in advance for potential (very) late replies.
Posted February 23, 2014
I personally would like to see everyone read Neale Donald Walsch's first trilogy.

It is possible to believe in God without subscribing to all the do's and don'ts of organized religion.
Posted February 23, 2014
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DieRuhe: It is possible to believe in God without subscribing to all the do's and don'ts of organized religion.
I wish more people actually realized that.
Posted February 23, 2014
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DieRuhe: It is possible to believe in God without subscribing to all the do's and don'ts of organized religion.
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Shaolin_sKunk: I wish more people actually realized that.
I'm going to get shit for this but there are too many people out there (NOT EVRYONE) who like being told what to do. I don't mean in a slavery way, it's just a lot easier any time a dilemma comes up to have 'god' telling you which way to go with it. I love human beings but since we first crawled out of the primordial ooze we've shown a distinct inability to want to think for ourselves. Point being without those 'do's and don'ts' a lot of folks wouldn't be able to get out of bed every morning; they'd be too scared and confused.
Posted February 23, 2014
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toxicTom: Continuation from yesterday:
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Soyeong: Sorry, I mean to reply to this sooner.
No problem :-)


Thing is, many people would call me crazy. That is why I don't go public with my experiences. People who know me personally on the other hand could confirm some of the stories I could tell - that's how I know I'm not crazy ;-)

If you really want to know, you can PM me. But my guess is you won't believe me.
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Soyeong: Just as it's difficult to believe that someone rose from the dead, it's difficult to believe miraculous claims, but they are too numerous and well attested to dismiss out of hand, especially the instances where they are medically documented.
I don't believe in miracles in the sense of some external supernatural power taking an influence of the world. Things I've witnessed and done could be considered miracles by some (or "magick"). But I think they're entirely natural, just in a plane of reality that science does not look into. The science world (like religious folk) has their own restrictions on free thought. Scientists are too afraid to embarass themselves in front of their colleagues to try to look into the "metaphysical" realm. Or maybe, like on the quantum level the result of the experiment is influenced by the intention of the observer, there are things that kind of "refuse" to be measured and picked apart.


First of all, all these religions are inherently misogynist. While I'm not a woman I can't accept treating half of mankind as inferior beings. The god is male (always He). The savior is male with an all male fanclub. The first human was a man. Priests are men. Most saints are men. Women brought sin and are subordinate to men.
You know that the early church tried to erase or at least "shrink" Mother Mary? They had to leave her in because people wouldn't accept a religion without a female mother goddess. Why do you think people in mass visions often see Mary and not Jesus?
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Soyeong: While it was a patriarchal society, Jews treated women much better than surrounding societies and they had many laws in the Torah that gave protection to them.
I'd like to have some sources for that. I've not ever read anywhere that the jew treated women better than, say, the Greek or Romans. On the contrary, with a pantheon that included goddesses like Athene, those women had a good chance to high-ranking positions in society.
Also it's pretty well documented how christianity treated women and how their situation turned a lot for the worse when the Christans took over. Don't be blind.


Next - they are all essentially apocalyptic death cults. Instead of encouraging people to improve THIS life for everyone they are focused on subordination, obedience and enduring "what God laid out for you" and waiting for a reward after death. Everything is centered around death, either personally or the end of the world. Christianity even perverted the powerful cross symbol, that as phallus represents the male half of life to solely an instrument of torture and death.
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Soyeong: The focus on Christianity isn't on the death of Jesus, but on his resurrection, so it's not on death, but life.
No the focus is enduring this life, and if bad happens it's obviously God's will and wait for the reward after death. And death means the individual death and the end of the world. If life was the message, why is the Christian symbol one of suffering and death (the crucifix) and not the ascending Jesus?


The Old Testament's god is a murderous, cruel and power hungry deity that would not even stop at human sacrifice, rape to death and genocide. The flood or Sodom and Gomorrha: Kill them all, let God sort them out - oops, that's me?
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Soyeong: Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because God was murderous, cruel, and power hungry, but because they were being judged for their wickedness. If there had been any righteous, then they would have been sparred. Genocide is targeting a group of people because of there ethnicity, so I'm not sure why you think God committed genocide. In fact, he targeted people because they were doing human sacrifices, among other reasons.
And there were no children, pregnant women, mentally challenged people in those cities? Only evil, evil grown-ups that of their own free will and with waterproof evidence of their doing wrong?
And since the old cities were effectivly city states, wiping one out counts as genocide.


I also know that the christians often claim kind of new deal with Jesus. But Jesus did not once claim that things would be better with him. On the contrary he stated that the old rules still apply. Just re-read about the second coming - no trace of generosity, tolerance, well-meaning. It's obey or be punished.
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Soyeong: When you talk about a God of love and justice, it only makes sense that He would have wrath towards those who obstructed it.
Well, wrath should be below an omnipotent being and is incompatible to "justice". I won't go into justice now, because I have no time right now, but you should know the difference between a lynching (the Old Testment's god) and a fair trial.


Furthermore: These religions are somatophobic. That is to be expected in death cults that rewards only the soul and sees the body as a mere vehicle. The greek, roman, norse gods at least had a lot of casual sex.
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Soyeong: There are Gnostic teachings that the body is evil, but that is not the case with Christianity.
Then why all the problems with sex and birth control? Why the focus on physical punishment for "sin"? Self-chastising? Those are mostly christan phenomena.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by toxicTom
Posted February 23, 2014
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toxicTom: Most saints are men.
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Paradoks: And yet, the greatest saint of them all is a woman :P.
Theresa? Well that's a disputed person. (The article is very careful and neutral. I've seen some that pick her to pieces.)

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toxicTom: You know that the early church tried to erase or at least "shrink" Mother Mary? They had to leave her in because people wouldn't accept a religion without a female mother goddess.
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Paradoks: I would really like to see a source for that. That's not the impression I got from Church Fathers. And Mary is not a goddess (despite what Jack Chick may think that the Church teaches ;)).
Oh dear. I can give you no exact source right now. You might want to look into the transcripts of the christian convents. I remember looking closer into those that took place in the 340s and the one (IIRC) 781. They're the two where Jesus' birthday was decided (it is not really known, from the NT text, some time in spring is likely, they decided midwinter to bring Jesus closer to the traditional Lightbringer festivities, especially the Mithas/Sol Invicutus birthday in Rome that was quite the rage). Please keep in mind that I'm pulling the dates from 15 year old memory, so I might be off a few years.
The original sources are of course in Latin, but I think there are at least partial translations available in secondary literature.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by toxicTom
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)