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Soyeong: It's true that gravity will not change behavior, but that is a philosophical truth rather than a scientific one. Science tells us about things that are observable, measurable, and repeatable, but it does not tell us about whether the future will be like the present.
Philosophy "tells"? More like "suggests".

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Soyeong: That's like asking if matter exists, are there any limits to the forms that matter can take? Of course it's possible for matter to take the form of a shark riding a unicorn, but contrary to memes, that doesn't invalidate anyone's argument.
Yes it does, it should make it clear to you that the possibility of something's existance, does not mean it exists.

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Soyeong: Logical necessity does not mean possible solution. If an argument has true premises and a valid form, then the conclusion follows through logical necessity.
Meaning? Let me guess: "Hence god exists!"

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Soyeong: The article explains the problems better than I can, but one problem he has is if our universe is but one member of an infinite collection of randomly varying universes, then it’s overwhelmingly more probable that we should be observing a much different universe than that which we in fact observe.
So? Everything is very improbable. What is the probability of gods creating me to write this here? Yes I know it is testing you.

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Soyeong: Science and faith have never been in conflict with each other.
lol lol lol

heliocentricity.

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iippo: so you think the sandwich disappears? or becomes non-existent even?
unless you DO believe in god who makes sandwiches appear and disappear from existence, doesnt it then mean that eating a sandwich is likely to be fundamentally same as big bang? just change in form rather than existence?
Could be! I have this hypothesis that everything is a little universe, and everything within that is a little universe and so on. Maybe our universe is just a cell or an atom within a plant in the universe above us. I have just as much evidence for it as Crag Hack has for this ideas.

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Soyeong: He starts off by arguing the the universe has a cause. Then he argues for what attributes this cause has. If his arguments work, then he has proven the existence of a being that has many of the attributes that correspond to our idea of God.
Sounds like it requires boatloads of assumptions to me. "proven" lmao



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Soyeong: The multiverse does have explanatory power in this regard, but so does God, and neither have any scientific evidence. However, I think God is the superior explanation because the article has lethal objections to the multiverse.
Of course the "lethal objections" to gods don't concern you. Why would you even compare the two? Plus you can always push your gods of the gaps one step further and just claim the gods made all the universes, because hey why not.

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Soyeong: While we are likewise not familiar with designers of universes, we certainly are familiar with minds and the products of intelligent design, so that the appeal to a designer as the best explanation of the fine-tuning is an appeal to a familiar explanatory entity.
Fine tuning? LOL So the fact that 99% or more of all species that ever existed died a horrible death is fine tuning. Among them some almost humans who maybe had gods, too. These designers are noobs.
I would have given us a second set of eyes in the back and the ability to close our ears at least so my neighbors don't annoy me.
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TrollumThinks: I'd like to hear his subsequent arguments that go from 3 to God - will try to look them up myself but if anyone has a link handy? (it's probably further back in this thread but I've not the time to read through it all).
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Soyeong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hW3ceQYxic
Thanks - I'm about 20 minutes in and this is where he's talking about the uncaused yet personal cause.
I think pimpmonkey has indeed overstated the handwaving God of gaps aspect.
In the lecture, he argues (more effectively than I can summarise - so watch the vid if anyone's interested) that, since the universe has a finite beginning (through science), its cause must be timeless and immaterial (since the cause gave rise to time and matter). (Even if you go back a few universes ago, the same applies).
If the cause were merely mechanical then, as the cause were eternal, the effect would be eternal and thus the universe would always have been.
Therefore, the cause must be personal, a being with the ability to spontaneously decide to create the universe at a finite point in the past.

So the question of rebuttal is: What else could it have been? If it were mechanical (or other non-sentient cause) but timeless, could it also be eternal without eternally causing the universe?
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TrollumThinks: In the lecture, he argues (more effectively than I can summarise - so watch the vid if anyone's interested) that, since the universe has a finite beginning (through science), its cause must be timeless and immaterial (since the cause gave rise to time and matter). (Even if you go back a few universes ago, the same applies).
This is just the dark ages crap from Thomas A. This was before they had general relativity and advanced mathematics. Infinity does not mean that there must have been a timeless starter.

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TrollumThinks: If the cause were merely mechanical then, as the cause were eternal, the effect would be eternal and thus the universe would always have been.
Ok assuming there has to be a cause (see above) and assuming there is something like eternalality,and assuming the the effect of an eternal cause must be eternal...why does a mechanical cause have to be eternal?
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TrollumThinks: In the lecture, he argues (more effectively than I can summarise - so watch the vid if anyone's interested) that, since the universe has a finite beginning (through science), its cause must be timeless and immaterial (since the cause gave rise to time and matter). (Even if you go back a few universes ago, the same applies).
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jamotide: This is just the dark ages crap from Thomas A. This was before they had general relativity and advanced mathematics. Infinity does not mean that there must have been a timeless starter.
It's more finity than infinity - I've not looked at the science myself (in any detail) so are we in agreement that the Universe has a finite past? (Or have I missed some science?) And if so, does that not indicate a start-point? If time (as well as matter) has a cause, then is that cause not necessarily timeless? (In other words, if something has time already then it can't be the cause of time). I'm genuinely confused on this point so pointing me to an alternative argument would be appreciated.

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TrollumThinks: If the cause were merely mechanical then, as the cause were eternal, the effect would be eternal and thus the universe would always have been.
Ok assuming there has to be a cause (see above) and assuming there is something like eternalality,and assuming the the effect of an eternal cause must be eternal...why does a mechanical cause have to be eternal?
Because if it were not eternal (and existed outside time) then it wouldn't change in order to become the right conditions. This is a point I've always struggled to imagine - if there's no time then how can anything happen?
So it comes down to: Does timeless=changeless?
Sorry - edit: If it were not eternal, doesn't that mean it has time? And so would it not need a cause of its own?

The same could be argued about God, I suppose - if He existed outside time, could He act to create time? - hence the argument that only He could, by definition of being omnipotent. A mechanical cause can't be said to be omnipotent (unless there's an argument that says it can?)
Post edited February 07, 2014 by TrollumThinks
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TrollumThinks: I'd like to hear his subsequent arguments that go from 3 to God - will try to look them up myself but if anyone has a link handy? (it's probably further back in this thread but I've not the time to read through it all).
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Soyeong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hW3ceQYxic
Stop using William Lane Craig. The guy is a self professed "defender of Christianity" using a medieval argument to try and back up christian dogma. Its like using a tobacco executive to tell you that smoking is ok and is no way addictive and dangerous. Something they have done for decades and still fight tooth and nail so they can rake in billions of dollars, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary. Or an oil company executive who uses out of date information to try and deny climate change and global warming, which again is totally contrary to evidence and is in no way due to vested interests and the huge money being made.
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Alfie3000: Stop using William Lane Craig. The guy is a self professed "defender of Christianity" using a medieval argument to try and back up christian dogma. Its like using a tobacco executive to tell you that smoking is ok and is no way addictive and dangerous. Something they have done for decades and still fight tooth and nail so they can rake in billions of dollars, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary. Or an oil company executive who uses out of date information to try and deny climate change and global warming, which again is totally contrary to evidence and is in no way due to vested interests and the huge money being made.
Nonetheless - that falls under the definition of a strawman argument - showing that some unrelated thing is wrong doesn't deal with the present discussion. I'll take it as merely an intended analogy though and ask this:
If you believe that WLC is biased, then show bias on his part. Of course, he's got a goal, but if his arguments are as incongruous as the oil-exec using out of date info or the tobacco-exec hiding facts under the carpet, then it should be easy enough to show.

The ontological argument part of the lecture would, I imagine, be the least convincing part to an atheist (I can't help looking at it through Christian eyes). Nonetheless: Dismissing arguments because "that can't be true" or "there must be more to it than that" or "he's ignoring xyz" isn't enough - you need to consider why it can't be true/what more there is/what exactly he's ignoring and what it means.

tl;dr - he can quote WLC, you should argue the point, not the man.
Hmm... what if we are to die and "live our lives again" in a different universe (or the one we live in), but with a different "you"... what if similar to this thread existed in a previous life of ours and we just repeat the same cycle, or something similar to it? At least nature tries to teach us everything is one big cycle, no? Hmm... but how does that "transition" happen? If that's even the case... the turning point...
Post edited February 07, 2014 by nadenitza
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Alfie3000: Stop using William Lane Craig. The guy is a self professed "defender of Christianity" using a medieval argument to try and back up christian dogma. Its like using a tobacco executive to tell you that smoking is ok and is no way addictive and dangerous. Something they have done for decades and still fight tooth and nail so they can rake in billions of dollars, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary. Or an oil company executive who uses out of date information to try and deny climate change and global warming, which again is totally contrary to evidence and is in no way due to vested interests and the huge money being made.
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TrollumThinks: Nonetheless - that falls under the definition of a strawman argument - showing that some unrelated thing is wrong doesn't deal with the present discussion. I'll take it as merely an intended analogy though and ask this:
If you believe that WLC is biased, then show bias on his part. Of course, he's got a goal, but if his arguments are as incongruous as the oil-exec using out of date info or the tobacco-exec hiding facts under the carpet, then it should be easy enough to show.

The ontological argument part of the lecture would, I imagine, be the least convincing part to an atheist (I can't help looking at it through Christian eyes). Nonetheless: Dismissing arguments because "that can't be true" or "there must be more to it than that" or "he's ignoring xyz" isn't enough - you need to consider why it can't be true/what more there is/what exactly he's ignoring and what it means.

tl;dr - he can quote WLC, you should argue the point, not the man.
Of course he's biased, he's a Christian apologist. He's biased towards Christianity. He does more than Cosmology arguments too. The problem is assuming that the bible and its god is true. It allows in his argument of :

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence. <------ with this being the Christian God since that is always his assumption. That the Christian God created the universe. Why is that the conclusion? Does no other Gods or religions exist? His only "evidence" is the bible. If 1,2 & 3 are correct how do you jump to Christian God without an agenda? Can the cause of the universe not be something else?

It's a Christian trying to rationalise Christianity. So of course you get the answers you want.
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TrollumThinks: It's more finity than infinity - I've not looked at the science myself (in any detail) so are we in agreement that the Universe has a finite past?
Yes looks that way.

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TrollumThinks: And if so, does that not indicate a start-point? If time (as well as matter) has a cause, then is that cause not necessarily timeless?
There is no reason to assume that. That cause could be just like our universe. In fact that is what all the worry about when they built the large hadron collider. That's what the end of the world stuff was about, some worried new universes could be created. There could be infinite regression. The human mind can't easily grasp infinity, that is no reason to make wild assumptions about more pleasant alternatives.
These philosophical speculations were made before mathematics understood infinity. The only reason they are still around is because hacks like Crag (Heroes of Might and Magic joke) slightly modify them to impress their cult.

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TrollumThinks: Because if it were not eternal (and existed outside time) then it wouldn't change in order to become the right conditions.
What, why? Things that aren't "eternal" change all the time.

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TrollumThinks: This is a point I've always struggled to imagine - if there's no time then how can anything happen?
So it comes down to: Does timeless=changeless?
Sorry - edit: If it were not eternal, doesn't that mean it has time? And so would it not need a cause of its own?
Don't know, doubt anyone knows, yet.

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TrollumThinks: The same could be argued about God, I suppose - if He existed outside time, could He act to create time? - hence the argument that only He could, by definition of being omnipotent. A mechanical cause can't be said to be omnipotent (unless there's an argument that says it can?)
I don't see any need to make all these speculations. I don't see what it is useful for, except maybe to write Q for Star Trek.
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nadenitza: Hmm... what if we are to die and "live our lives again" in a different universe (or the one we live in), but with a different "you"...
A hard hit on a unlucky spot of our heads and we are different "yous". That alone should tell anyone that the whole soul,afterlife and whatnot stuff is BS.
Post edited February 07, 2014 by jamotide
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Soyeong: ...
At your question of 'What logical leap?' I thought about this for some time. And I have your logical leap.

As the cause of space and time, this cause must an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, and immaterial.
The entire text you have quoted is based on 4 logical leaps. No matter how much justification have they received, they necessarily need to be logical leaps, because we have absolutely nothing to base logic leading to those claims on aside from our personal experience, which is pretty much completely unrelated to events of those proportions. It's all green animals. And why does philosophy need to contain logical leaps? Well, because without logical leaps, it becomes peer-reviewed scientific method.
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Alfie3000: Of course he's biased, he's a Christian apologist. He's biased towards Christianity. He does more than Cosmology arguments too. The problem is assuming that the bible and its god is true. It allows in his argument of :

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence. <------ with this being the Christian God since that is always his assumption. That the Christian God created the universe. Why is that the conclusion? Does no other Gods or religions exist? His only "evidence" is the bible. If 1,2 & 3 are correct how do you jump to Christian God without an agenda? Can the cause of the universe not be something else?

It's a Christian trying to rationalise Christianity. So of course you get the answers you want.
Ok, so were you with him up until 'a god' exists but disagree that it's the Christian God (necessarily)?
Or do you disagree with his conclusion about 'a god'. If so, where?

I think he (or someone, can't recall) has another argument about why the God of Abraham is different from other gods (perhaps in the Creation aspect, being outside of the world?) I dunno - would have to look it up - too tired now.
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jamotide: What, why? Things that aren't "eternal" change all the time.
sorry, yes, that's what the edit tried to address, I had that backwards.
I don't see any need to make all these speculations. I don't see what it is useful for, except maybe to write Q for Star Trek.
fair enough, I enjoy them for the discussion that they are. (Plus I like Q. The original Q, not the other Q or Q, except that that other other Q was ok)(but Q wasn't actually omnipotent, just claimed to be)(like the one where he claimed to be God and Picard was dying on the operating table, that was a good episode).
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nadenitza: Hmm... what if we are to die and "live our lives again" in a different universe (or the one we live in), but with a different "you"...
A hard hit on a unlucky spot of our heads and we are different "yous". That alone should tell anyone that the whole soul,afterlife and whatnot stuff is BS.
That's a logical leap. If the claim of the soul and afterlife depended on us NOT also being animals with a physical brain then yes, but it doesn't. There's some suggestion that there'll be no memory in heaven since our brain won't go with us. I hope not...then again, I could play BG again with no spoilers...
Post edited February 07, 2014 by TrollumThinks
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Alfie3000: Stop using William Lane Craig. The guy is a self professed "defender of Christianity" using a medieval argument to try and back up christian dogma. Its like using a tobacco executive to tell you that smoking is ok and is no way addictive and dangerous. Something they have done for decades and still fight tooth and nail so they can rake in billions of dollars, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary. Or an oil company executive who uses out of date information to try and deny climate change and global warming, which again is totally contrary to evidence and is in no way due to vested interests and the huge money being made.
With studying philosophy, it's not about when the philosopher lived, but about whether what they said is true. Most of the people who dismiss medieval philosophers out of hand, such as Thomas Aquinas, can't even show that they understand his arguments. For that, I'd suggest reading the beginners's guide Aquinas by Edward Feser. I think hylemorphic dualism solves the mind/body problems plaguing modern philosophy.

http://www.amazon.com/Aquinas-Beginners-Guide-Edward-Feser/dp/1851686908

In any case, WLC certainly has bias, but everyone has bias, so there's nothing wrong with that. The issue is whether his bias unduly influences his work, and I don't think that can shown to be the case. The idea that no Christian scholar is able to be objective as possible when looking at the facts is rather absurd. Books that lambaste Christianity often become instant best sellers, so it's not like atheists are immune to that motivation. If you think bias is an issue, then look first at where atheist and Christian scholars agree, and then build from there.

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence. <------ with this being the Christian God since that is always his assumption. That the Christian God created the universe. Why is that the conclusion? Does no other Gods or religions exist? His only "evidence" is the bible. If 1,2 & 3 are correct how do you jump to Christian God without an agenda? Can the cause of the universe not be something else?
He doesn't just assume that the cause is the Christian God. He follows the argument you quoted by arguing for which attributes this cause would necessarily have, which at they very least shows there is a being that has attributes that correspond to our idea of God, which is significant even if this being doesn't correspond to the God of any particular religion. However, WLC then follows that up by arguing for the resurrection of Jesus, which is an argument for the identity of this being.
Post edited February 07, 2014 by Soyeong

As the cause of space and time, this cause must an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, and immaterial.
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Fenixp: The entire text you have quoted is based on 4 logical leaps. No matter how much justification have they received, they necessarily need to be logical leaps, because we have absolutely nothing to base logic leading to those claims on aside from our personal experience, which is pretty much completely unrelated to events of those proportions. It's all green animals.
Craig doesn't just assume those things are true, but gives logicial reasons for why those would be the case.
First of all, this cause must itself be uncaused. It must be an uncaused First Cause. Why? Because we have seen that an infinite regress of causes is impossible. Remember that the philosophical arguments in support of the beginning of the universe were that you cannot have an infinite regress of causes, and, therefore, the series of causes must terminate in an absolutely first, uncaused cause.

Secondly, this being must transcend space and time because it created space and time. As the creator of space and time, it must exist beyond space and time because it brought space and time into existence. What does that have for further implications? That means that this being, therefore, must be a non-physical, or immaterial, being. This must be a spiritual reality; an immaterial, nonphysical being. Why? Because physical things exist in space – they have dimensions. Moreover, physical things exist in time. Physical things are always changing, at least at the atomic level, where there is just constant motion and change going on. So if you get back to an absolutely first, spaceless, timeless being, it must be an immaterial, non-physical, changeless reality.

Obviously, we can also infer that this being would have to be unimaginably powerful, if not omnipotent. Why? Because it created all of physical reality from nothing. It created the space-time material universe without any sort of material cause. So it is the efficient cause of the universe – it brings matter and energy, space and time into being, but it does so without any sort of stuff, or material, because it creates the universe out of nothing. So it would have to be unfathomably powerful, if not omnipotent.

Finally, this is plausibly a personal being. In our discussion of the Leibnizian Cosmological Argument that was mentioned a moment ago, we already saw one reason why a cause of the universe must plausibly be a personal being.

You remember that I said that there are only two kinds of things that we are aware of that can fit the bill of being an immaterial, timeless, changeless reality. One is an abstract object, like a mathematical entity such as a number or a set. Numbers are not material, physical things; if they exist, they are immaterial realities. They don’t exist in space – the number 7 isn’t hiding under a table here in the room or any place else in the universe.3 They are timeless as well – it is not as if the number 7 endures through time. So abstract objects, mathematical entities, can be immaterial, changeless, spaceless, timeless objects. The other candidate would be a mind. That is to say, an unembodied consciousness or self. The mind is not a material entity, and it need not be constantly changing as long as its thoughts are changeless and focused on a single intuition of reality. And a mind isn’t something that exists necessarily in space.

So we can either have an abstract object or an unembodied consciousness as a cause of the universe. And I argued that it cannot be an abstract object because abstract objects do not stand in causal relationships. This is part of the very definition of what it means to be an abstract object. The number 7 doesn’t have any effects, it has no causal impact upon the universe, nor do any other mathematical entities. So the defining property of abstract objects is their being causally impotent. They do not stand in causal relations. Therefore, it follows that the cause of the origin of the universe must be an unembodied mind – a personal self.

That was the reason I gave when we talked about the Leibnizian argument. Let me now share a different reason for the personhood of the first cause that was given by our friend al-Ghazali, who was the Muslim philosopher that propounded the KalamCosmological Argument during the Middle Ages. Al-Ghazali argued that the first cause must be a personal being because otherwise it is impossible to explain how you can get a temporal effect with a beginning from a changeless, eternal cause.

Here is the problem. If a cause is sufficient to produce its effect, then if the cause is there, the effect should be there. Otherwise, the cause isn’t really sufficient for the effect – you would need something else, and then that would be the cause. So if the cause is sufficient to produce its effect – if the cause is there in all its glory – , then the effect must be there as well. The cause cannot exist without its effect once the sufficient conditions for the effect are given.

Let me give you an illustration. Suppose that the cause of water’s freezing is the temperature’s being below 0°C. If the temperature were below 0°C from eternity past, then any water that was around would be frozen from eternity. It would be impossible for the water to just begin to freeze a finite time ago. Once the cause is given, the effect must be given as well. The problem is, if we have a transcendent and timeless cause that is there, why isn’t the effect also permanent as well? Why did the effect only begin a finite time ago if the cause is eternal? How can you have an eternal cause but an effect that only has a beginning a finite time ago?

Al-Ghazali’s ingenious answer to this dilemma was to say that this is possible only if the cause is a personal agent who is endowed with freedom of the will and who can therefore freely will to create spontaneous, new effects that aren’t determined by any prior antecedent conditions. The cause of the universe can be a personal agent who freely wills to create a universe with a beginning. This act of creating is a freely willed act that doesn’t have any prior determining conditions, so it can be something that is spontaneous and new. For example, to return to an illustration, let’s imagine a man who has been sitting from eternity, and he suddenly wills to stand up. You would have an effect with a beginning, namely, his standing, arise from a cause which is eternal and has always been there.4 Philosophers cause this kind of causation “agent causation.” The cause is a free agent who, through an exercise of his free will, can bring about a new effect. So we are brought not simply to a transcendent cause of the universe, but to its personal Creator.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defenders-2-podcast/transcript/s4-13#ixzz2setzXPUk
And why does philosophy need to contain logical leaps? Well, because without logical leaps, it becomes peer-reviewed scientific method.
Science itself is based on philosophical ideas that it can't prove. I don't consider it to be a logical leap the the future will be like the present.
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Soyeong: ...
Look, I'm not going into a philosophical debate here. If you can't see logical leaps in that, then I'm sorry, but you just suffer from confirmation bias because there's a good share of them. It all seems logical from the text, but the truth is that a lot of 'musts' in there are in fact mere 'may's.

And, as somebody pointed out already, the entire argument is shattered by 'What did cause God to exist'? The entire argument stands on our inability to explain God, we might as well settle on our inability to explain the universe and go from there...
Post edited February 07, 2014 by Fenixp
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Fenixp: Look, I'm not going into a philosophical debate here. If you can't see logical leaps in that, then I'm sorry, but you just suffer from confirmation bias because there's a good share of them. It all seems logical from the text, but the truth is that a lot of 'musts' in there are in fact mere 'may's.
We don't have a compete set of knowledge, so the best we can do is believe things that are true to the best of our current knowledge. If you think Craig missed something or made an error, then by all means bring it up. Their is certainly the possibility that Craig could be wrong on one of his premises, but until then, I think that what he has shown is true to the best of our knowledge. There are non-Christians who have found his arguments convincing, so it's not all confirmation bias.

And, as somebody pointed out already, the entire argument is shattered by 'What did cause God to exist'?
The argument is not that everything that exists has a cause, but that everything that begins to exist has a cause. An eternal being did not begin to exist, and thus does not need a cause.
Post edited February 07, 2014 by Soyeong