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Elmofongo: What is with this anime shit on Wizardry?

This is what will happen if Blizzard closes down and the rights to their IPs goes into the hands of Asia.
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Crosmando: If you disregard the anime artstyle the Japanese Wizardry games are actually surprisingly loyal to the original games, mechanically speaking. There's an English fan translation of Wizardry Empire floating around too.
The Japanese Wizardry games vary in how faithful they are to the classic games mechanically.

The Wizardry Gaiden games seem to be the most mechanically faithful; the biggest difference being that the cap for stats is equal to the racial base plus 10 instead of 18 (so Dwarves can get 20 Strength in WG1 and WG2). Other differences include the lack of a LOST status (the character is immediately deleted instead) and the fact that teleporting into rock inflects DEAD and returns the party to town (instead of LOST and then deleting the party).

The Game Boy Color Wizardry Empire games are less so. One significant difference is HP growth; the game doesn't reroll all your HP on level up. As a result, class changed characters end up with more HP than those that don't change classes. (Note that Wizardry Empire GBC is completely different from the PSX Wizardry Empire and its sequels.)

Wizardry Summoner (Game Boy Advance) works differently in terms of how many spell points spellcasters get. Then again, in this game it appears the developers accidentally swapped the EXP and GP given by enemies, resulting in a situation where leveling is far too slow (even by classic Wizardry standards) but you have way too much money and nothing to spend it on; this problem is severe enough to ruin the game (which is a shame, becuase the whole summoner mechanic seems rather interesting to begin with).

Edit: Forgot another big change that's present in pretty much every spin-off (excluding one dungeon in WG4): the MALOR spell, when cast outside of combat, can only teleport you to squares that you have visited.
Post edited November 08, 2019 by dtgreene
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RWarehall: DreadOut

Why was it added? Maybe because they want DreadOut 2 here...as a Day 1 release and this is intended as advertising for the upcoming game where they plan to make Day 1 money.
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fronzelneekburm: An interesting theory. Hadn't thought of that.

So you agree that even though a game has been bundled a number of times, you'd be in favor of gog releasing it if that helps bringing the sequel here on Day 1? Cool, I agree with that. It's kind of at odds with how you opposed One Finger Death Punch being released here because of incessant bundling, but I guess it's never too late to learn. ;)

(Just a small aside on DreadOut: I have to stress again that gog effectively sabotaged their own launch by not offering Keepers of the Dark here. I can only speak for myself, but I didn't buy DreadOut during the Halloween sale precisely because gog has no option to buy the complete package. Would've loved to get the game here (if only to show them that, yes, there is a market for games that have been bundled before), but since they don't even offer the whole thing, why should I bother? If they really want to get the second one here, they better release KOTD posthaste, because that one not being here sends the WRONG signal to prospective buyers of the second game.)

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RWarehall: "But I want this game" isn't a good argument.
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fronzelneekburm: It becomes a good argument when you have a sizeable chunk of your community voice it.
And did DreadOut release to bundles within months of release? No, it did not. The game was out for 3 years before it hit any bundle. But One Finger Death Punch and its sequel both did. The sequel bundled the week of its release. It comes down to developer tendencies. Hopefully GoG has plans to release Keepers of the Dark in a future lead up to DreadOut 2.

Frankly, it isn't what I want, it's what makes good financial sense. If GoG takes in an older title in order to help sales of a new product, they are doing it for their own financial benefit. The problem is some people act like young children begging for a lollipop when their mommy tells them "No". The majority of GoG rejections are plainly obvious, yet some of you complain about these niche titles as if they are AAA gems. And among the rest, acceptance or rejection could go either way. For some of you to complain about GoG curation when many of these titles aren't even top half of the Steam catalog is completely mystifying.

Your other problem is what you call a "sizable chunk of your community" is really the result of brigading a bunch of people to vote on the Wishlist who really aren't all that likely to buy the game Day 1 like those who might vote unprompted. Furthermore through months of forum brigading, the number of votes is not proportionally representative of the real interest in the title and GoG knows this.

As I've said many times, these rejections make obvious sense to reasonable people who don't find every rejection something to complain about. But when I see people complaining about GoG curation over even a rejection of a game coming from a publisher who sells their games for $0.99 on Steam, it's hard to take your complaints seriously. When there is a list of hundreds of rejected games and one can go through them and find 80% or more are clearly middle-of-the-road or worse, there is a problem with the way some people are complaining all the time.

This particular title just wasn't very well received on the PS3 as a game, releasing a console port years later doesn't make that better. Now, if GoG could leverage this into getting Wizardry 1-5 here, that would be a different story, but I'm pretty sure the rights for those titles lie with an entirely different entity.
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RWarehall: ....
*ten gog credits have been deposited into your account for this post...have a pleasant day*
Post edited November 08, 2019 by GameRager
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RWarehall: ....
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GameRager: *ten gog credits have been deposited into your account for this post...have a pleasant day*
Are you just an overall dick? Of course you are...
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lolinc: Yes, I played . . . I think it was Wizardry II or III on the PS1, which interestingly, were better than the PC versions. I'm completely fine with things being left to the imagination. Actucally, the MIDI soundtrack to those old games are better than. . . this title (I refrained from saying hot-mess). And if I want something. . . focused strictly on challenging dungeon mechanics, no-frills, I'll play DCSS.

Yup, some older titles had "primitive" graphics, but good art, and good conceptialisation; both of the latter I see absent in WLLS.
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dtgreene: I actually just beat the PSX version of Wizardry 2, actually. Also, the soundtrack in those old games is generally not MIDI; for the Apple 2 versions it's non-existent, for the NES it's chiptunes, the SFC version uses samples I believe (and I would be surprised if it actually used the MIDI format internallt), and the PS1 version actually uses red book audio (like an audio CD) for almost all of its soundtrack.

(The only console games I am aware of that actually use MIDI in some form are Rare's Nintendo 64 titles, including Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong 64.)
Right, I must be confused; I had always thought that most complex music sequences and tracks of that era were played on a Roland or Yamaha, using MIDI protocol, and stored on readable formattes for whatever proprietary SPU.
Post edited November 08, 2019 by lolinc
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Crosmando: If you disregard the anime artstyle the Japanese Wizardry games are actually surprisingly loyal to the original games, mechanically speaking. There's an English fan translation of Wizardry Empire floating around too.
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dtgreene: The Japanese Wizardry games vary in how faithful they are to the classic games mechanically.

The Wizardry Gaiden games seem to be the most mechanically faithful; the biggest difference being that the cap for stats is equal to the racial base plus 10 instead of 18 (so Dwarves can get 20 Strength in WG1 and WG2). Other differences include the lack of a LOST status (the character is immediately deleted instead) and the fact that teleporting into rock inflects DEAD and returns the party to town (instead of LOST and then deleting the party).

The Game Boy Color Wizardry Empire games are less so. One significant difference is HP growth; the game doesn't reroll all your HP on level up. As a result, class changed characters end up with more HP than those that don't change classes. (Note that Wizardry Empire GBC is completely different from the PSX Wizardry Empire and its sequels.)

Wizardry Summoner (Game Boy Advance) works differently in terms of how many spell points spellcasters get. Then again, in this game it appears the developers accidentally swapped the EXP and GP given by enemies, resulting in a situation where leveling is far too slow (even by classic Wizardry standards) but you have way too much money and nothing to spend it on; this problem is severe enough to ruin the game (which is a shame, becuase the whole summoner mechanic seems rather interesting to begin with).

Edit: Forgot another big change that's present in pretty much every spin-off (excluding one dungeon in WG4): the MALOR spell, when cast outside of combat, can only teleport you to squares that you have visited.
While I appreciate your indepth breakdown, I mean they are loyal broadly speaking, in that they are turn-based, party-based blobbers and they didn't turn them into a first-person shooter like what happened to Fallout when the franchise changed hands.
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RWarehall: Are you just an overall dick? Of course you are...
If you didn't seemingly go around on this current topic with your fingers in your ears agreeing with most of gog's decisions while rudely dismissing most others I wouldn't feel the need to resort to such.

(Fwiw, I wouldn't even feel the need to keep replying on this if you'd be willing to at least consider other views on the matter and not just basically state "gog is right, you are wrong, because I say so" over and over)

(To everyone else: For now I will once again bow out as it seems I am banging my head against the wall here)
Attachments:
Post edited November 08, 2019 by GameRager
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RWarehall: Are you just an overall dick? Of course you are...
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GameRager: If you didn't seemingly go around on this current topic with your fingers in your ears agreeing with most of gog's decisions while rudely dismissing most others I wouldn't feel the need to resort to such.
Lol, don't behave like you're a legitimate poster, you're a 4chan meme shitposter, and I say this as a shitposter myself.
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Crosmando: Lol, don't behave like you're a legitimate poster, you're a 4chan meme shitposter, and I say this as a shitposter myself.
Do you mean the pics I posted here? I got them from google. Or do you mean in other threads?

Also why does it matter if I use 4chan or not? Does that invalidate one's opinions somehow or make them a bad person by default?

I post my pov and debate with those who post theirs and try to be civil if given the same treatment, and if not then I get a bit upset(naturally) as I don't like my chain being yanked and my time wasted like any other person wouldn't. Give respect and get respect is how I try to live my life, and even when disrespected I try to give people more and more chances but even I have my limits.
=================================================

But as I said I am dropping this...I mainly wanted to reply to you as you bothered replying to me.....now I hope this game comes here. If no I can get it on steam, but I would prefer the money go to Gog to help it grow.
Post edited November 08, 2019 by GameRager
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dtgreene: The Japanese Wizardry games vary in how faithful they are to the classic games mechanically.

The Wizardry Gaiden games seem to be the most mechanically faithful; the biggest difference being that the cap for stats is equal to the racial base plus 10 instead of 18 (so Dwarves can get 20 Strength in WG1 and WG2). Other differences include the lack of a LOST status (the character is immediately deleted instead) and the fact that teleporting into rock inflects DEAD and returns the party to town (instead of LOST and then deleting the party).

The Game Boy Color Wizardry Empire games are less so. One significant difference is HP growth; the game doesn't reroll all your HP on level up. As a result, class changed characters end up with more HP than those that don't change classes. (Note that Wizardry Empire GBC is completely different from the PSX Wizardry Empire and its sequels.)

Wizardry Summoner (Game Boy Advance) works differently in terms of how many spell points spellcasters get. Then again, in this game it appears the developers accidentally swapped the EXP and GP given by enemies, resulting in a situation where leveling is far too slow (even by classic Wizardry standards) but you have way too much money and nothing to spend it on; this problem is severe enough to ruin the game (which is a shame, becuase the whole summoner mechanic seems rather interesting to begin with).

Edit: Forgot another big change that's present in pretty much every spin-off (excluding one dungeon in WG4): the MALOR spell, when cast outside of combat, can only teleport you to squares that you have visited.
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Crosmando: While I appreciate your indepth breakdown, I mean they are loyal broadly speaking, in that they are turn-based, party-based blobbers and they didn't turn them into a first-person shooter like what happened to Fallout when the franchise changed hands.
I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making Fallout a First Person Shooter/RPG.

Many great RPGs also happened to be in First Person. Deus Ex, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Elder Scrolls, Vampire Bloodlines, fucking STALKER?
Post edited November 08, 2019 by Elmofongo
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Crosmando: While I appreciate your indepth breakdown, I mean they are loyal broadly speaking, in that they are turn-based, party-based blobbers and they didn't turn them into a first-person shooter like what happened to Fallout when the franchise changed hands.
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Elmofongo: I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making Fallout a First Person Shooter/RPG.

Many great RPGs also happened to be in First Person. Deus Ex, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Elder Scrolls, Vampire Bloodlines, fucking STALKER?
You seem to be confusing FPS and FP, also there's nothing wrong with RPG-FPS in itself, what is wrong is taking an existing game universe and then turning it into an abomination of what it was.
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Elmofongo: I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making Fallout a First Person Shooter/RPG.

Many great RPGs also happened to be in First Person. Deus Ex, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Elder Scrolls, Vampire Bloodlines, fucking STALKER?
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Crosmando: You seem to be confusing FPS and FP, also there's nothing wrong with RPG-FPS in itself, what is wrong is taking an existing game universe and then turning it into an abomination of what it was.
You got Fallout New Vegas in the end.
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Crosmando: You seem to be confusing FPS and FP, also there's nothing wrong with RPG-FPS in itself, what is wrong is taking an existing game universe and then turning it into an abomination of what it was.
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Elmofongo: You got Fallout New Vegas in the end.
What does that have to do with anything? I'm saying that Fallout was a top-down turn-based PC CRPG series, and it should of stayed that way.

Also FPS and RPG are a strange marriage to say the least, FPS relies on realism, fast-paced action, and preciseness in aiming, while RPGs rely on abstraction. That's why FPS-RPGs tend to feel awkward in that the FPS parts and RPG parts constantly clash, you end up with situations where putting points in Perception just reduces the aiming reticule, or it just makes your gun more powerful. Or situations like Morrowind where you can be standing right in front of an enemy and still keeping missing attacks because under-the-hood you are missing because of your poor stats (ie a complete visual disconnect between the game systems and the visuals on the screen).

To me RPG-FPS is just some strange crossbreed monster which has never worked well.
Post edited November 08, 2019 by Crosmando
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GameRager: You pointed to reviews and ratings which can be manipulated and which not everyone fills out or adds to, and showed us your interpretation of such.
You've used this same argument several times in this thread, and I don't quite get it.

Sure, reviews and ratings on steam can be manipulated.
The devs can delete negative reviews (maybe? sometimes? I dunno)
The devs can create fake accounts to artificially inflate the score.
Someone with a grudge and a lot of time can spam negative reviews.

But the examples given here were not that. They were examples of a LACK of ratings, one example being only about 80 ratings over 5 years, and that too just totalling a rating of average (I didn't go back to see the exact numbers posted, but I believe I got it about right).

How on earth would anyone game that? And why?

If, as a gog curator, I was investigating a game and saw that it only had about 80 reviews over a period of 5 years, and those 80 reviews just gave it an average score (plus the steamspy data that showed it was in the lowest tier of ownership, with just 0 to 20k owners on steam), I would quite rightly conclude that the game is not very popular, and even among those who do consider it important (i.e. enough to review it), the overall score is only average, so those would definitely be points against including it in gog.
Post edited November 08, 2019 by babark
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babark: You've used this same argument several times in this thread, and I don't quite get it.
Ok then I will try to explain what I can from my pov/on my stance.

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babark: Sure, reviews and ratings on steam can be manipulated.
The devs can delete negative reviews (maybe? sometimes? I dunno)
The devs can create fake accounts to artificially inflate the score.
Someone with a grudge and a lot of time can spam negative reviews.

But the examples given here were not that. They were examples of a LACK of ratings, one example being only about 80 ratings over 5 years, and that too just totaling a rating of average (I didn't go back to see the exact numbers posted, but I believe I got it about right).

How on earth would anyone game that? And why?
Not everyone reviews most games.....also those who do aren't going to be a perfect representation of those who might want it here & DRM free, as a good number who would only buy it DRM free or who won't touch steam wouldn't ever have bought it on steam or reviewed it there to begin with.

Also 2 more things: If sales are the determining factor for curation then why did they let games come here which sell less and/or are as "niche" as they claim other games to be? If the "too niche" reason put in their rejections emails was the reason for most gamea actually being rejected then we likely wouldn't have some of the games here that we have now.

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babark: If, as a gog curator, I was investigating a game and saw that it only had about 80 reviews over a period of 5 years, and those 80 reviews just gave it an average score (plus the steamspy data that showed it was in the lowest tier of ownership, with just 0 to 20k owners on steam), I would quite rightly conclude that the game is not very popular, and even among those who do consider it important (i.e. enough to review it), the overall score is only average, so those would definitely be points against including it in gog.
Yes, but on the gog wishlist some of those games have a much higher score, and I don't think all/most of it can be handwaved away(as some suggest) as wishlist manipulation by those all/mostly not interested in the games.

(Also I would be more willing to consider the other side's POC more if they didn't act like steam reviews were un-manipulable and infallible while they also seemingly say the gog wishlist entries cannot be trusted for some games. That is cherry picking data to suit one's argument)