Nice to see you objectively gauging art again, Vain.

he doesn't deserve having ads pulled like they were

I don't believe in awards. Nor that there is some some objective standard of ''award winning''. Its all based on subjective choice. This isn't like some job interview where someone has a degree and someone else doesn't. What you're saying sounds awfully like the people who fight over review scores (which is sensible) but then argue their own arbitrary number should be the score (just as bad as the original).

And Vain goes for the low hanging fruit! Why not tackling the nonsense of the claims of cheese pizza? I know, because that is not as easy.

What? did I miss something, I haven't been following this puppies thing at all.

The Sad Puppies was a sort of campaign or group, I don't know well, who noticed SJWs hijacked the Hugo Awards, they decided to counter hijack it and get un PC nominees which usually were ignored in favor of lower quality PC nominee candidates.

The campaign has been mildly successful and it gets more successful over time, currently they got very un PC works of fiction and authors, as well as works of fiction which indirectly targeted SJWs, into the nominee lists, including Kokuruyo and an specific two parter story arc in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic in which the main characters confront a character which has orwellian ideology and tries to make everyone "equal" by taking away their individuality and free thought, favoring mediocrity over skill and conformity over creativity.

The campaign got backlash from SJWs and they try to sabotage a monster they created.

I am not exactly in favor of Sad Puppies since the method is fighting fire with fire, but I understand the motives behind that and find them noble.

Vain decided to target Kokuruyo's entrance into the nominees due to Sad Puppies as an attempt at diminishing Kokuruyo's merit.

I believe it is more important to notice that Kokuruyo has been falsely accused of producing child pornography by SJWs in an attempt of ruining the artist's career. Their argument is that the artist drew a 16 year old character in an erotic context.

My argument is that there is no real child pornography in fiction since it is not real, including drawings, video games, literature and other forms of fiction unless there is a real life child put in a real life sexual context such as in an exploitation film. Another argument I provide is that complaining about fictional characters under 18 depicted in a sexual context is very stupid for at least three reasons, first, it is NOT REAL, second, age means nothing, just look at Dizzy from Guilty Gear, she is one of the most sexualy developed characters in the game, mentally mature, and she is just 3 years old, and finally, if the ages of consent around the world are a mess to the point of being hogwash, then it makes no sense to try to apply them to fiction when in real life we are yet to figure out how to make them work.

I mostly agree and understand, but where does the cheese pizza come in?

Cheese pizza is internet slang (from chan culture) for child porn (CP), same with communist party, and other similar terms. Often used for humorous purposes. As mentioned, Kokuruyo was accused of producing child porn for drawing a 16 year old character in an erotic content. Something nonsensical if you ask me. Drawings should never be held in the same standard as photography, and even underage nudity in real life is not always child pornography. Something a translator learns early is that context matters.

Never heard that, but now I get it. Thanks.

That has been well established. And "I don't know well" is not exactly a position from which to explain anything to others, obviously.


I don't know what the guy does for a living, but it sincerely can't have much to do with art. No need to worry here! (That's a review from one you guys, actually)


A hobby artist with rather mediocre skills who puts all his energy into making uninspired gamergate propaganda cartoons that have no discernable punchlines gets heaved into a prestigious international sci-fi contest via slate voting i.e. fascist manipulation of the democratic voting process of the Hugo Awards.

In this case, via the support of Vox Day (and his many nazi friends, and that is not an exaggeration of any kind unfortunately). Kokuruyo is nominated alongside truly great and deserving art hobbyists, actual artists against whose body of work his art looks like the doodles of a four year old.

You know stuff about manga, right? Well, that's his style. Please do judge him according to any standard you may have and then assess whether he'd be deserving of any kind of prize, maybe just in a local contest in a little village. Of course, I will judge your understanding of the manga art form based on your conclusion here.

Kokuruyo has no understanding of line, form, framing, anatomy, color, composition or dynamics. He leeches gags off other gamergate propaganda cartoons and executes them in the worst way possible.

If you're even borderline honest to yourself, there's just one conclusion to draw. You want to weed out corruption? Here it is, you can start with the weeding anytime. You're against having bogus political crap shoehorned into your media at all costs, thus lowering the artistic standard considerably?

Here it is, and you seem to think it's really swell.

Look, Kokuruyo's art is faulty. That is a fact, but that does not mean all the work is faulty or unable to improve. Second, that wiki is super biased and moralist and full of double standards, panning Scot Ransomair for his crude humor for example.

Not to mention that there is no such a thing as "one of us", I have seen so many people supporting GG or against SJWs in general even when they conflict in other views, for example transgender people and people who hate transgenders both standing against SJWs, open pedophiles (not child molesters) and soccermoms standing against SJWs, MRAs and feminists from other branches of feminism standing against SJWs, conservatives and liberals, vegans and meat eaters, wankers and prudes, furries and normalfags, bronies and normalfags, weeaboos and average japanophiles, junkies and marijuana opposers, Bernie Sanders supporters and Trump supporters, Corpus and Grineer, Scoia'tael and Flaming Rose, Team Magma and Team Aqua, Azorius Senate and Rakdos Cultists, Dalmascans and Archadians, Daleks and Time Lords.

You see, SJWs hold so many double standards that even people who hate each other or are constantly in conflict are together against them. They have political power because they are corrupt, but just like Enrique Peña Nieto and the PRI political party, they may have power but are hated by the majority and seen as imbeciles. Even some PC supporter hate SJWs because they find them belligerent, hypocritical, treacherous, dishonest, corrupt, and twisting their goals.

And SJWs sexist in the right wing too by the way.

And third, Kokuruyo does not only do GG Life, there are other comics and in general separate art pieces which I actually like too, not to mention the criticism towards orwellian trends in Spain.

Say whatever you want, but these people attack the artist for not falling in line and there is proof.

The double standard at work here has zero to do with "SJWs". And I have zero interest talking about the fascist fictional enemy concept and the many many conspiracy theories attached to it. Particularly not if you still don't have a clue why you don't get to engage in definition and identification of the dehumanizing concept at the same time. We're talking about the Hugo Awards and about kukuruyo's nomination. If you can't stick to the topic without going SJW this SJW that, we have no common basis for debate.


I was talking about deserving a Hugo Award for work that isn't up to any standards. And has squat to do with science fiction. I never said that the guy deserves attacks.


The propaganda constitutes the main body of his work from the last two years and is the sole reason Vox Day chose him for his slate i.e. the sole reason why he became nominated.


Concerning Orwell, well, I've read one of kukuruyo's "comics" yesterday, a two panel something in which Sarkeesian and Quinn present to the UN the 1984 novel as the new standard for internet regulation. Y'know... "orwellian" isn't a new standard, really. In many respects, internet reality has long since outdone anything ol' Georgie could ever have imagined.

I'm keeping the rambling short here because it is off topic a bit, but factually Quinn has, at UN, passionately argued for internet anonymity i.e. against any kind of Orwellian dystopia. So this comic of his, supposedly satiric, really is just dishonest or at the very least grossly uninformed mirror universe stuff.

The guy is now a Hugo Award nominee, and he's a Hugo Award nominee BECAUSE OF this dishonesty. That undoubtedly makes a lot of people very mad. :|


All right, let's talk about Vox Day if you so choose.

To put it in a nutshell, "puppy" slates in recent years demanded that science fiction be less progressive. I'm snorting milk through my nose just reiterating that. You as a literature student and I with an A-grade degree in literature, we can see that this is a "Let's make Corn Flakes without corn" type demand, no?

For his 2016 slate however, Vox Day has just put just about anything on his list. Because he's not after something something alternative right wing Conan whatever anymore, he's after destruction. His 2015 concept of "good old science fiction", which has brought him many a laugh from actual sci-fi aficinados, was twisted as he saw fit.

Did you know that his nazi pamphlet "SJWs always lie" also got nominated through slate voting? At a science fiction award? Does that seem right to you? Isn't that politics politics corrupt something or other?

Thankfully, besides himself and kukuruyo, he put Chuck Tingle on that list. And that wonderfully pounded Vox Day in the butt eventually. You should read up on it sometime (and on the inner workings of the Hugos).

To reiterate, a fair democratic voting process of an international contest that to a high degree reflected international preferences before 2013 has been systematically violated and ridiculed by assholes. Assholes with a fringe extremist political opinion from a country that, by European standards, sadly only has far right wing parties anyway, both busily working towards global economic domination and total surveillance.

Kukuruyo's ridiculous nomination is one of many signs of that corruption and destruction. Kukuruyo is well aware of that and very smug about it. That gets him ample hate, which I can not condone, but understand nonetheless. Actual sci-fi fans have loved the Hugos for many decades, and seeing the cultural suicide from games spread over to sci-fi literatur like that undoubtedly lets people lash out with some force. :(

So a group of book burning harpies who recognize a racial group as controlling the world and keeping their race / ideology ''down'' without proof and refuse to engage in conversation because they ''don't talk with misogynerds / homophobes / anythingphobes'' and want selective free speech and priviliges for their own group aren't the Nazis? Not to mention thinking nearly the same as the racists in believing there is somehow a unified ''white culture'' and ''black culture'' and some cultures shouldn't be held to the same standards as others.

And how is that different then you claiming all of this is a Gamergate conspiracy? Funny the double-standards.

Have you ever had any part in literary fandom? There was about a decade where I regularly attended most of my local Sci-Fi conventions. Let me tell you this, Gamergate and the Hugo awards are two different animals. Video games have never been a significant part of this community. There may, on occasion, be small computer rooms at some of these conventions, but they tend to be more ghost towns as compared to other parts of the conventions. Because the people involved in these events, read books in their free time, and don't have time to be involved with video games.

So this whole fallacious claim that Gamergate is what's behind the popularity of Sad Puppies; that there are this many people who will shell out $30 (or whatever it was) just to stuff a ballot box for the sake of prejudice is ludicrous to the extreme.

As to Manga and fan art. Unlike video games, that was always very popular. You might think the art is crude by Rembrandt standards, but I've seen Manga drawings and arguably less-talented paintings of dragons sell as well as anything else at the Art Shows. So who are you to say Kukuruyo's art doesn't belong? Are you getting this idea from your echo chambers? And while I personally may agree with you and prefer more "real art" to Manga or Comics style art, in a democratic process, my taste does not trump the taste of others. Seems your version of democracy is free voting for any candidates you personally approve of and anyone else should be removed from the ballots. Sounds Fascist to me.

Back on the topic of Sad Puppies, but seems to me this is a counter-reaction to a movement which started in the last few decades. I'm not sure characterizing it as the same SJWs of video gaming is entirely accurate, I say "PC Culture" is a better term as it applies to films and books. I remember an SNL skit which typified the issue. This was after movies like Good Will Hunting, A Beautiful Mind, Born on the Fourth of July, Forrest Gump were the Oscar darlings. The skit was about the Oscars. One fictional movie was about a paraplegic overcoming diversity. Another mentally retarded, etc. and one nominee was an actor who played Hamlet. And the winner is...a 4-way tie, everyone except the Hamlet guy!

The point is this "PC Culture" movement had taken over Oscar nominations and the Sad Puppies apparently perceive the same thing taking over the Hugos. That the stories nominated have to involve "politically correct" concepts, be written by "politically correct" "diverse" people in order to be nominated. That's all it is. So they decided to create a slate of candidates who may have been overlooked because their stories don't necessarily promote "PC" agendas. The fact people like Vain what to turn them into racists or sexists for fighting back against "PC Culture" just shows how domineering and dictatorial these "PC Warriors" have become.

As to who is right/wrong with the Hugos, I don't have the foggiest. I haven't read any of those books, been spending my time playing video games, but its not hard to take a quick look at the nomination lists and winners and think that its fairly likely "PC Culture" has had a hand in it the same same way certain themes in movies earn an Oscar nomination...

As to Kukuruyo and the pedophile charge. Did anyone in this thread read where this stemmed? He did fan art of Ms. Marvel. The knock against him is that the source material (i.e. Issue 1 had Ms. Marvel as 16). That doesn't mean Ms. Marvel has always been portrayed as 16. Carol Danvers isn't 16 in the Supergirl TV show and certainly isn't 16 in all appearances in comic books. It's pretty clear to me Kukuruyo isn't attempting to portray the 16-year old Ms. Marvel either. Basically he is getting shafted by puritan SJW idiots, the type like Vain who like to use double-standards to their benefit and cherry pick offenses of their enemies, even when these offenses are greatly contrived such as Kukuruyo's.

The type of people where if you can't argue against what someone says, let's character assassinate them instead. For example, Milo's a Republican or Milo's a Gamergate supporter so we can ignore that article... Um, huh? Really? Shoot the messenger and ignore the message? Kukuruyo does fan art; Kukuruyo is on the Sad Puppies list; So ignore his art and don't vote for him. Sorry Vain, there are fans of Manga and fan art. The Hugos are a democratic voting process. He is as deserving as any other nominee and no authoritarian jackasses have any right to say otherwise, especially when Manga and Fan art are particularly popular at Sci-Fi conventions. This isn't the Smithsonian...

I can only hope the actual voters will vote for the best art or books and put their petty politics aside. To vote against someone just for being fan art or pro Gamergate or male is just as bad as voting against books for taking a pro-diversity stance. Let the quality dictate the truth. But alas, we have Vain and other "PC Culture" advocates already pushing their politics through the bullying and harassment of a nominee such as Kukuruyo.