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jefequeso: Yeah, they don't want them.
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johnnygoging: well if they ever peter out in sales why not put them in a pack and sell them together? I saw your games before and I thought they were really interesting. the visuals and presentation are very unique and interesting. if they're too short, maybe one day try and submit them as one and call it "videogame potpourri" or something.
That's not a bad idea at all. Hopefully it won't have to come to that, but if it does...
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Aningan: Surely it would be simpler to pirate it directly.
Don't underestimate people's desire to somehow feel justified. They will take satisfaction in the exploitation of the loophole.
Ok, after this thread and some very confusing discussion on Twitter, I can see how the refund policy probably isn't as big a deal as I think. It might even end up being a good thing for devs.
You're always going to find people who will abuse a system somehow, if it can be exploited. Best to just focus on developing what you enjoy and putting it out there for people to find and support, if they like it. The more you focus on the actions of a minority of trolls, the worse you'll feel. Best to focus instead on the goodwill generated by your own efforts and that of the support people give your products.
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jefequeso: Seriously, it's already difficult enough to convince players to spend a few bucks on an indie game. Most people wait for bundles or obscene sales discounts, and buy them for pennies.
For whatever it's worth, I try to buy indies at full price or lightly discounted, though the sales often come around before I have the cash to spare for them (I still work retail, so I'm sure you know what that's like financially; working on a game in my spare time myself). I generally save the deep discounts for the "AAA" games.

As it turns out, The Moon Silver was already on my wishlist. Added The Music Machine, since I hadn't heard about it yet.
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jefequeso: Seriously, it's already difficult enough to convince players to spend a few bucks on an indie game. Most people wait for bundles or obscene sales discounts, and buy them for pennies.
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Nesoo: For whatever it's worth, I try to buy indies at full price or lightly discounted, though the sales often come around before I have the cash to spare for them (I still work retail, so I'm sure you know what that's like financially; working on a game in my spare time myself). I generally save the deep discounts for the "AAA" games.

As it turns out, The Moon Silver was already on my wishlist. Added The Music Machine, since I hadn't heard about it yet.
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame anyone for picking up games cheap, indie or not. But I do get a mite irritated when people start complaining about having to pay $3 because "that's too much to spend on an indie game." It's the price of a McDonalds hamburger, for pete's sake...

Oh, and don't even get me started about complaints regarding game length. Because, you know, $9 to watch a 1h30m movie once in the theater is fine, but $3 to own a 1h30m game tha you can play multiple times isn't.

EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
Post edited June 03, 2015 by jefequeso
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jefequeso: Ok, after this thread and some very confusing discussion on Twitter, I can see how the refund policy probably isn't as big a deal as I think. It might even end up being a good thing for devs.
Certainly possible, I actually think this is much worse for big publishers than it is for most small indies. On the whole, even if you get the types that are going to be buying, playing, and getting refunded "just because they can", they are at least playing your game and the ones who like it will spread the word.

Still, it's something to keep track of and I do hope that at the least it doesn't negatively affect your income in the long run.

One last thing, I hope this policy doesn't deter developers from making games with runtimes less than 2 hours. I actually much prefer games that have full playthrough times in the 1-2 hour range and that have extremely well-paced and thought out narrative and experience as opposed to games which try to stretch things out for the sake of extending some theoretical time threshold. Of course, some games and some stories might actually need to be longer (like how some TV series don't work as 2-hour movies), but the way a lot of games play out right now it's sort of like watching a 10-hour poorly edited movie that could have been recut into a dynamite 2-hour experience.
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jefequeso: Ok, after this thread and some very confusing discussion on Twitter, I can see how the refund policy probably isn't as big a deal as I think. It might even end up being a good thing for devs.
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the.kuribo: Certainly possible, I actually think this is much worse for big publishers than it is for most small indies. On the whole, even if you get the types that are going to be buying, playing, and getting refunded "just because they can", they are at least playing your game and the ones who like it will spread the word.

Still, it's something to keep track of and I do hope that at the least it doesn't negatively affect your income in the long run.

One last thing, I hope this policy doesn't deter developers from making games with runtimes less than 2 hours. I actually much prefer games that have full playthrough times in the 1-2 hour range and that have extremely well-paced and thought out narrative and experience as opposed to games which try to stretch things out for the sake of extending some theoretical time threshold. Of course, some games and some stories might actually need to be longer (like how some TV series don't work as 2-hour movies), but the way a lot of games play out right now it's sort of like watching a 10-hour poorly edited movie that could have been recut into a dynamite 2-hour experience.
I actually much prefer shorter games too, almost to the point where I won't buy a game if it's too long. I just don't have the time or patience to devote to long games, and when it comes to storytelling I find short experiences much more satisfying anyway. I just wosh more gamers understood that, and didn't always equate playtime with value. Because as far as I'm concerned, playtime doesn't matter one bit if the experience isn't interesting. I'd much rather have 4 hours of awesomeness a la The Vanishing of Ethan Carter than 60 or 70 hours of mediocrity and/or padding.

Also, that's very true about the extra publicity. That's one of the reasons I'm ok with people pirating my games. Because hey... that's free advertising for me! And at this point my problem isn't piracy, it's people not knowing who I am or caring what I make.
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jefequeso: I actually much prefer shorter games too, almost to the point where I won't buy a game if it's too long. I just don't have the time or patience to devote to long games, and when it comes to storytelling I find short experiences much more satisfying anyway. I just wosh more gamers understood that, and didn't always equate playtime with value. Because as far as I'm concerned, playtime doesn't matter one bit if the experience isn't interesting. I'd much rather have 4 hours of awesomeness a la The Vanishing of Ethan Carter than 60 or 70 hours of mediocrity and/or padding.

Also, that's very true about the extra publicity. That's one of the reasons I'm ok with people pirating my games. Because hey... that's free advertising for me! And at this point my problem isn't piracy, it's people not knowing who I am or caring what I make.
Ha! You kind of ninja'd what I was typing about the playtime stuff. My thoughts exactly, and I really appreciate that about your games too -- that they are not stretched out just for the sake of appeasing that "game is too short" mentality.

I think as games begin to reach more varied demographics, you will see people clamoring for higher quality experiences in shorter amounts of time. Gaming had been stuck in that $40+ on release pricing scheme for so long that people just got used to wanting bang for their buck in terms of gameplay time -- especially teens and young adults to whom many of the games were being targeted at and whom didn't have much income as compared to full-time wage earners and professionals. Things are starting to change now in game pricing as well as target demographics, and looking at the Steam reviews of The Music Machine I think that many of the people interested in your games are of the variety that can appreciate and actually seek out shorter game experiences.
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jefequeso: Don't get me wrong, I don't blame anyone for picking up games cheap, indie or not. But I do get a mite irritated when people start complaining about having to pay $3 because "that's too much to spend on an indie game." It's the price of a McDonalds hamburger, for pete's sake...

Oh, and don't even get me started about complaints regarding game length. Because, you know, $9 to watch a 1h30m movie once in the theater is fine, but $3 to own a 1h30m game tha you can play multiple times isn't.

EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
3 USD might be hamburger for you.

3 USD can give you food for one full day over here.

You know, America is not the center of the world.
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jefequeso: Don't get me wrong, I don't blame anyone for picking up games cheap, indie or not. But I do get a mite irritated when people start complaining about having to pay $3 because "that's too much to spend on an indie game." It's the price of a McDonalds hamburger, for pete's sake...

Oh, and don't even get me started about complaints regarding game length. Because, you know, $9 to watch a 1h30m movie once in the theater is fine, but $3 to own a 1h30m game tha you can play multiple times isn't.

EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
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zeroxxx: 3 USD might be hamburger for you.

3 USD can give you food for one full day over here.

You know, America is not the center of the world.
Do we need to get into this?
It's a good thing in general - you'll just have to make your games last three hours from now on =D
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jefequeso: Don't get me wrong, I don't blame anyone for picking up games cheap, indie or not. But I do get a mite irritated when people start complaining about having to pay $3 because "that's too much to spend on an indie game." It's the price of a McDonalds hamburger, for pete's sake...

Oh, and don't even get me started about complaints regarding game length. Because, you know, $9 to watch a 1h30m movie once in the theater is fine, but $3 to own a 1h30m game tha you can play multiple times isn't.

EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
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zeroxxx: 3 USD might be hamburger for you.

3 USD can give you food for one full day over here.

You know, America is not the center of the world.
No, but the vast majority of people who are going to be buying games live in countries where $3 is basically pocket change.
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jefequeso: EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
I think I'll be good, as I know someone who does business, but if you don't mind I'll send a friend request your way, just in case :-)
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jefequeso: EDIT: Also, let me know if there's anything I can do to help you out. I was in the exact same situation not that long ago, and I know how frustrating it is to try and get traction as an indie developer.
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Nesoo: I think I'll be good, as I know someone who does business, but if you don't mind I'll send a friend request your way, just in case :-)
Sure, no problem.