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javihyuga: My preference order is now: IV > V > VI > VII > III >>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&a mp;g t;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> II
Really? I always thought that Attack of the Clones was the... let's call it least bad of the prequels. They all suck harder than a collapsed star, but at least this one had Christopher Lee, and some entertaining scenes like the battle on Geonosis.
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Breja
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Breja: The cheap twist thing is the most obvious- except for maybe Poe Dameron (who was originally supposed to die 1/3 way into the movie and stay dead) all the new characters have a build in twist to them, along the lines of the "I am your father twist". First is Kylo/Ben who provides the twist for this movie (which everyone saw coming even if they have not had the movie spoiled), and then both Ray and Finn grew up without their parents, and no one (seemingly) knows who their parents are. And Snoke is possibly building up to another one, with his huge hologram you just know there is something hidden there.
please dont let Snoke end up like the Mandarin in Iron Man 3
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Breja: except for maybe Poe Dameron (who was originally supposed to die 1/3 way into the movie and stay dead)
Ah, that's why I liked him. I wish they'd approached the whole new trilogy exactly the same way.

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Breja: and then both Ray and Finn grew up without their parents, and no one (seemingly) knows who their parents are.
"Hur hur hur we aren't telling their surnames on purpose." It's as dumb as, say, keeping Luke's surname secret all the way through 4 and 5, and then it turns out to be Vader. "Why didn't you tell us?" "Er, idunno, it just never came up?"

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Breja: As for villains, this movie had a fuckton of them, they just were not all that interesting. My favourite example is Captain Phasma
Captain Phasma isn't a proper villain, she's an obligatory 10-point disadvantage Finn got due to being a rogue stormtrooper, and now neither Finn's player nor the GM know how to integrate her into the campaign.

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Breja: So why is she there? Because Boba Fett. Because they want so much to reproduce those characters from the old movies that the fans liked so much and found so interesting despite them being on the screen for just a few minutes. But it can't be forced, and I don't believe anyone gave a fuck.
It can be "forced", as in, written competently, it's just the screenwriters couldn't do it. Boba Fett felt like there was more to him (even though there wasn't). Phasma is "this space intentionally left blank", to be perhaps filled later with the background test audiences like best.

The fundamental problem is that they can't write to surprise anymore. Viewers shouldn't guess (or not guess) which of the plot building blocks will get used next, they should wonder. Kylo Ren will be "redeemed", or he won't, or he was a mole all along -- we've seen every variant with scores of Solo and Skywalker dudes. But if he were a 30+ swordswoman, that would be a non-cliche character, and people would go, "whoa, I can't predict what happens next, but I want to find out".

There's a great character in DROD 2, the 39th Slayer. I enter the room, plan my solution, proceed to play it out and he's like, "Hello motherfucker!" SW7 should have had at least two active masterminds, like in a three-body problem. One implements a plan, the heroes react (and the viewer is left guessing), then the second villain's plan throws everything into disarray, the heroes are up the shit creek without a paddle, they struggle to survive, and then Kylo Ren is like "Hello motherfuckers!"

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Breja: I'll be surprised if anyone remembers her name in two weeks.
Oh cmon, it's Star Wars. People remember the names of the cantina band players.
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Lemon_Curry: Me too though I hope we'll see him develop into an altogether different character than Vader. Honestly, I don't consider him a main villain in The Force Awakens (though initially he may appear as such), far from it actually. He is more like a powerful but highly inexperienced, completely reckless and unhinged Jedi apprentice who has been way too easily swayed by the Dark Side.
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BoxOfSnoo: Not that easily swayed... he has to keep reminding himself what the dark side offers, and he keeps punching himself in his wounded side to keep the fury up during an intense light saber battle.

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FearfulSymmetry: Wow, and clearly your tastes dictate what is good and what is not? You think it's shit so no one else is allowed to like it? You're entitled to your own opinions, but they're still just that: your opinions. Obviously the people who are saying it's good are also merely sharing their own opinion, neither side is the absolute truth, so I'm not saying they're right. I'm just saying we could be a tad more considerate of others.
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BoxOfSnoo: Thing is, it's not his opinion. He hasn't seen the movie.
Thing is, it IS my opinion. One does not have to witness something to have an opinion about it. Disagree with that? Well, that would be your opinion, wouldn't it?

And if I had seen it, then the accusation of being a money paying hypocrite could be applied. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Breja: Really? I always thought that Attack of the Clones was the... let's call it least bad of the prequels.
I agree, but that's personal taste of course.
So let's assume that before Finn managed to disable the shields for the planetary death machine and what else, he suddenly died for whatever reason. Do you think the Resistance would have been able to do anything and manage to save their own?
The Force Awakens is the least interesting Star Wars movie

I think it's a worthwile read, and it sums up well the biggest problems of the film and nailed how I felt about it.
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Breja
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Breja: The Force Awakens is the least interesting Star Wars movie

I think it's a worthwile read, and it sums up well the biggest problems of the film and nailed how I felt about it.
Very good points made; the central disagreement I have with the text is that Merchant is wishing George Lucas back at one point.

I have many points of criticism towards Episode VII but none weighs as heavy as the movie's pacing – and George Lucas practically invented this kind of modern action cinema for the prequels, those breathless leaps from one action scene to another, from one planet to another in the blink of an eye, and the absurd lucky accidents that make his universe appear so small.

Episode VII is above average fan fiction not because Lucas wasn't involved, but in fact because he's been paid far too much tribute to. And that really doesn't stop at just the plot oddities. :(
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Vainamoinen
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Breja: You can try to spin it however you want...
You cheeky bastard. ;D

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Breja: My favourite example is Captain Phasma- there was so much talk about her, how it's such a cool character, the first female villain in Star Wars movies, the first Stormtrooper to really matter etc. and in the end she has maby five lines of dialogue, never takes of her helmet, and could as well have been cut out of the movie.
Well, I knew absolutely zilch about her so I just saw her as yet another minor character whom we’ll probably get to know more about in future installments.

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BoxOfSnoo: Not that easily swayed... he has to keep reminding himself what the dark side offers...
I didn't get the impression that he has to do that.* It seemed to me that his inner conflict was all about the nature of his family ties (how they connect to major players on both sides of the Force) and, in particular, the problematic relationship with his father rather than (the opposition between) the ideals and principles of the light and the dark side respectively. By committing patricide he effectively severs the one family tie that’s clearly the major cause of his grievances: that between father and son. Furthermore, it serves to strengthen the spiritual bond between him and his grandfather. When he speaks of being torn apart, wanting to be free of the pain and asks Han for help I believe he is referring to the act of killing him (help in the sense of self-sacrifice). Obviously, that’s not what Han thinks (or wants to believe) and that in itself shows just how tragically far apart they are as father and son.

The way I see it Kylo Ren craves power, recognition and not much else. He doesn’t care about moral values or politics and isn’t drawn to the light side. All he cares about is assuming the mantle of his grandfather.

*I guess I must have missed this bit:
Snoke: If you only knew the power of the Dark Side. Luke Skywalker never told you what happened to your cookies.

Kylo: He told me enough! He told me you crushed them!

Snoke: No. We have your cookies.

Kylo: No. No. That's not true. That's impossible!

Snoke: Search our pantry, you will know it to be true!

Kylo: [anguished] No! No!
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BoxOfSnoo: ... and he keeps punching himself in his wounded side to keep the fury up during an intense light saber battle.
I got the impression that it was done for purely physical reasons – that he was somehow trying to keep his body alert and functional so it wouldn’t give in and he wouldn’t pass out. Anyway, it did look delightfully intimidating – as if he wasn’t bothered by the pain itself.
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Lemon_Curry
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PookaMustard: So let's assume that before Finn managed to disable the shields for the planetary death machine and what else, he suddenly died for whatever reason. Do you think the Resistance would have been able to do anything and manage to save their own?
Well, Rey is in the death machine, and she has the ability to manipulate people, so she could have gotten one of the stormtroopers to disable the shield.
It was nice to have characters I actually liked and wanted to succeed. I think what sums up the movie for me was when the gang are hanging around a table to hammer out their battle strategy and it’s a short scene maybe 1-2 minutes in length which keeps it really simple – take down the shields, blow this thing up, party time. It’s a space adventure. Princess Leia doesn't command 4 simultaneous attacks to stop the order from blockading Naboo because the taxation of trade routes is in dispute or whatever.

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phaolo: the villain gets ruined fast.. from a scary powerful foe to a derpy teenager defeated by amateurs.
Seemed fine to me. When the villain removes his mask its supposed to convey something about the character and mess with your expectations. He's a scared shitless kid, a logical starting point on the path to the dark side.
Post edited December 23, 2015 by markrichardb
Continued from a post in a thread far, far away:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/well_star_wars_7_is_almost_upon_us/post279
[Breja:] I'm pretty sure theories about him being Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Yoda's father and an unknown third sibling to Luke and Leia are incoming.
I wouldn't be surprised if their hyperdrives kicked in a long time ago. :P
[Breja:] The "great" thing is, we only saw a hologram, which might have nothing to do with the actual person at all. You can speculate him to be absolutely anyone or any thing. My first thought, still while watching the movie, was that he's going to turn out to be really small in reality, some muppet 10 cm high.
True, the thought briefly crossed my mind that he might even belong to the same species as Yoda (with cropped ears for some unknown reason) - sort of like an ostracized, mutilated version of Yogurt - or perhaps be a crossbreed that's part human/humanoid.
[Breja:] Also, isn't it great that they finally perfected the holo-trasmition technology in Star Wars universe? They had to deal with the crappy quality for decades, even on the best Imperial destroyers.
Yeah, that was quite convenient (and seemed a bit silly really).
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Lemon_Curry
Saw the movie last night. Thought it was good entertainment and a quite good addition to the Star Wars movies. Hell, I liked it better than everything except Episode IV and V. Honestly, if you start to tear apart the plot points or dig too deep for logic in Star Wars material, especially the movies (any of them), it all falls apart pretty quickly.
Even more favorite than the movie are the people who are spending hours of their lives trying to articulate why exactly they don't like the movie. It must have been a radical let-down for a lot of folks.
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GR00T: Saw the movie last night. Thought it was good entertainment and a quite good addition to the Star Wars movies. Hell, I liked it better than everything except Episode IV and V. Honestly, if you start to tear apart the plot points or dig too deep for logic in Star Wars material, especially the movies (any of them), it all falls apart pretty quickly.
*ding*
Post edited December 23, 2015 by Tallima
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PookaMustard: So let's assume that before Finn managed to disable the shields for the planetary death machine and what else, he suddenly died for whatever reason. Do you think the Resistance would have been able to do anything and manage to save their own?
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dtgreene: Well, Rey is in the death machine, and she has the ability to manipulate people, so she could have gotten one of the stormtroopers to disable the shield.
However, if we're gonna talk about her manipulating ability, let's not forget that she took her merry time to attempt it, as well as a failed attempt or two, so I can say it can be quite random to execute, and its not good when you're in unknown enemy territory that is constantly being watched over by other stormtroopers, although one wonders that if the First Order can make a planetary death machine like that then why didn't they put more effort into installing security cameras or, since its Star Wars, even sensors that tell if the person in question is on the side of the First Order or an intruder.

Also, consider that Ray has no prior knowledge about the plan to destroy the death machine to begin with. Saving her was part of the plan Leia put forth, but utilizing her was not.
Post edited December 23, 2015 by PookaMustard