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General discussionSo, Grimoire...(1441 posts)(1441 posts)
(1441 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 08, 2017
Trying to search on Steam for more info was a mistake. Too much meme shit in the reviews and official messages. Disappointing, I was hoping for a decent to good Wizardry-clone, but I'm not going to spend time deciphering the obnoxious lingo surrounding it to see if it's worth the price. Just make a good game for fucks sake.
At least we'll always have Wizardry.
Post edited August 08, 2017 by getrdy
Posted August 08, 2017
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Glazunov: Regarding game simplicity, van Caneghem (who originated and made all the good Might & Magic games) once told me that yes, there was an increase an ease-of-gameplay between M&M II and III. As he put it, they simply wanted to widen the market. So, for that matter, did SirTech when they introduced colorful screens and in-game mapping. Cleve's rant against dumbing down is just more of his usual provocation--which he knows is ridiculous, because Grimoire has a number of "dumbing down" features (according to his own rhetoric) that he even boasts about in his trailer as promoting ease-of-use.

But he was always good at PR, and at least two-thirds of that is nonsense.
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Hrymr: Auto-mapping is very interesting example. Mapping dungeons by hand used to be part of the gameplay, so the introduction of auto-mapping can be seen as a sign of Decline.
However, there is huge difference between early Wizardry (1-5) and the late Wizardry (6,7).

In the early Wizardry the dungeon is really a MAZE. Dungeon architecture doesn't make any sense. It is designed to confuse the player with nasty things like black zones, spinners and teleporters. Finding your way is even more important, because you can't rest in the dungeon - you have to go back to town if you want to rest or level up, so navigation is super important and it's big part of gameplay. In this case auto-map can be seen as "dumbing down" and removing elements of gameplay.

In the later Wizardry dungeons aren't that complicated. They are supposed to look like real places, with straigth corridors and room here and there. Also, you can rest anywhere, so the navigating the dungeon isn't that important. In this case addition of auto-map isn't that big deal.
Cleve made Grimoire as a Wizardry 7 successor, so auto-mapping in this context isn't Decline.
I think this can be argued sensibly either way--with maps seen as a "simplification of gameplay," or a natural development based on a major shift in the Wizardry series, itself. But if as you wrote above "dumbing down" to Cleve is a matter of greater accessibility (and I think you're correct), then the shift in RPGs from hair-pulling mazes to kindlier, friendlier places with maps (such as Wizardry 6, 7, and Grimoire) in itself can be said to constitute a dumbing-down. Mind, I didn't think so at the time, when RPGs became less frustrating as a result of possessing maps, and phasing out spinners, portals, etc. But Cleve's definition is a sword that cuts both ways.

It's all semantics, in any case--just Cleve trumpeting to draw attention, claiming to stand tall against the hordes of midget developers who are afraid to challenge players and potentially make less money. So he challenges folks in Grimoire by slowing party leveling to a crawl, and throws in many fetch-it quests: quite the incline, that. Not that there's anything wrong with a good, solid pre-2000 RPG that takes forever to slog through. But as with everything today, so much surrounding the game is hype. In this, Cleve does not stand out. He'd be horrified, perhaps, to hear that he fits in so beautifully.
Post edited August 08, 2017 by Glazunov
Posted August 08, 2017
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getrdy: Trying to search on Steam for more info was a mistake. Too much meme shit in the reviews and official messages. Disappointing, I was hoping for a decent to good Wizardry-clone, but I'm not going to spend time deciphering the obnoxious lingo surrounding it to see if it's worth the price. Just make a good game for fucks sake.
At least we'll always have Wizardry.
I spent five minutes there, earlier. Someone made the mistake of starting a thread asking why it was necessary to bring politics into gaming, which of course gave Cleve a perfect opportunity to put up a five sentence rant in which four of the sentences included George Soros, and all of them read like word salad. Which of course drew great praise from a small but very loud group. Very loud? Of course. It's Steam.

And yes, you're right. I got out my boxed copy of Wizardry 7, and if we can find the time today or tomorrow, will try running it inside DOSbox for my grand niece to try. Could be fun all over again.
Posted August 08, 2017
I'm going to buy Grimoire 17th of November; preferably from GOG, but alternative is acceptable for me if it isn't available here.

I think I heard that Steam version of it is DRM-free, so I can make backup of it for myself.
(Memo to self: Check what DRM free Steam games are in my library and how to make installable backups from them.)
Posted August 08, 2017
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Glazunov: So he challenges folks in Grimoire by slowing party leveling to a crawl, and throws in many fetch-it quests: quite the incline, that. Not that there's anything wrong with a good, solid pre-2000 RPG that takes forever to slog through. But as with everything today, so much surrounding the game is hype. In this, Cleve does not stand out. He'd be horrified, perhaps, to hear that he fits in so beautifully.
Hmmm, leveling is slow only when your party is at level one, but it's because characters are weak, are missing attacks often and you have to careful with every encounter. Later in the game everything goes very smooth. There are encounter rate settings, so if you want to grind you set it to maximum and if you don't want you can set it to "never". And I haven't seen any fetch quests so far.
Posted August 08, 2017
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Hrymr: Also, there is nothing wrong with blobbers. I said that real time blobbers (like Grimrock) are dead end sub-genre. Why? Mostly because of (another wierd term) "combat tango".
I like the dancing in Grimrock/EOB/Dungeon Master. There are people who enjoy that type of game. It requires precision, calm mind even in distress, leveled party and tidy inventory.
Posted August 08, 2017
Le sigh, still waiting for my key. It sounds like something I would love to sink my teeth into.
Posted August 08, 2017
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Glazunov: So he challenges folks in Grimoire by slowing party leveling to a crawl, and throws in many fetch-it quests: quite the incline, that. Not that there's anything wrong with a good, solid pre-2000 RPG that takes forever to slog through. But as with everything today, so much surrounding the game is hype. In this, Cleve does not stand out. He'd be horrified, perhaps, to hear that he fits in so beautifully.
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Hrymr: Hmmm, leveling is slow only when your party is at level one, but it's because characters are weak, are missing attacks often and you have to careful with every encounter. Later in the game everything goes very smooth. There are encounter rate settings, so if you want to grind you set it to maximum and if you don't want you can set it to "never". And I haven't seen any fetch quests so far.
I cannot claim to have progressed past level 1. If I find the time, I'll try to do so by this weekend. Have you been playing it? You sound sensible: what are your impressions?

By fetch-it, I mean the wall where you must insert the Grand Cursed Whistle of the Carbonite Rangers to find a new corridor, or the tribe of miniature dwarves that require you bring a bottle of wine owned by their god, Schnorz, the Deity of Insignificant Fun, before they'll give you the Gem of Redundancy that grants you immunity to...

Anyway, I know you get the idea. We both played the Wizardry titles, and we know about gathering stuff to move ahead. I'm sure I read somewhere that Cleve was boasting it had more quest items than ever before, but that's probably just hyperbole.
Posted August 08, 2017
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Glazunov: My great niece, who often shares a first experience of new games she's purchased with me, has gone ahead and bought Grimoire. (Oh for the folly and money of youth!) I offered to find her my preview code, but she gracefully declined.

Initial reactions from a very cursory glance:

* Character creation is just as unpleasant as it looked in The Weary Adventurer's walkthrough, and yes, identical to Wizardry's system that I didn't like. That's a bit of retro RPGing I wish I'd not been reminded of.

* Both of us enjoyed the limited animations and colorful graphics, though we would have preferred a larger screen on the world, and smaller controls.

* Yeah, it's damn hard, just as I remember it being. It pays to grind a lot.

* The map system is pretty good. I still wince remembering Wizardry 6's maps-as-a-raisable-skill, which meant spending your few, very precious skill points to see more on maps.

* Many more items hidden in bushes, etc, than in the Wizardry titles.

Not much else to note at this point. We both have work.

PS: Should have added that the music is awful. The later Wizardry titles had some decent music for the time, with allowances for technology and memory limitations, but that isn't the case, here.
Quick question: Do you find the inventory system annoying?
I have watched a few streams so far and it looked really annoying to me but seeing something and having to do it yourself can feel different.
Posted August 09, 2017
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Glazunov: I spent five minutes there, earlier. Someone made the mistake of starting a thread asking why it was necessary to bring politics into gaming, which of course gave Cleve a perfect opportunity to put up a five sentence rant in which four of the sentences included George Soros, and all of them read like word salad. Which of course drew great praise from a small but very loud group. Very loud? Of course. It's Steam.

And yes, you're right. I got out my boxed copy of Wizardry 7, and if we can find the time today or tomorrow, will try running it inside DOSbox for my grand niece to try. Could be fun all over again.
I've still got my boxed copy too and am playing it now. A real classic and I've never regretted buying it at full price. If your grand niece is into it, it might be worth getting her started on Wizardry 6 for the double whammy.
Posted August 09, 2017
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getrdy: Trying to search on Steam for more info was a mistake. Too much meme shit in the reviews and official messages. Disappointing, I was hoping for a decent to good Wizardry-clone, but I'm not going to spend time deciphering the obnoxious lingo surrounding it to see if it's worth the price. Just make a good game for fucks sake.
At least we'll always have Wizardry.
avatar
Glazunov: I spent five minutes there, earlier. Someone made the mistake of starting a thread asking why it was necessary to bring politics into gaming, which of course gave Cleve a perfect opportunity to put up a five sentence rant in which four of the sentences included George Soros, and all of them read like word salad. Which of course drew great praise from a small but very loud group. Very loud? Of course. It's Steam.

And yes, you're right. I got out my boxed copy of Wizardry 7, and if we can find the time today or tomorrow, will try running it inside DOSbox for my grand niece to try. Could be fun all over again.
It's like watching if Trump personally developed a game.
Posted August 09, 2017
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Glazunov: My great niece, who often shares a first experience of new games she's purchased with me, has gone ahead and bought Grimoire. (Oh for the folly and money of youth!) I offered to find her my preview code, but she gracefully declined.

Initial reactions from a very cursory glance:

* Character creation is just as unpleasant as it looked in The Weary Adventurer's walkthrough, and yes, identical to Wizardry's system that I didn't like. That's a bit of retro RPGing I wish I'd not been reminded of.

* Both of us enjoyed the limited animations and colorful graphics, though we would have preferred a larger screen on the world, and smaller controls.

* Yeah, it's damn hard, just as I remember it being. It pays to grind a lot.

* The map system is pretty good. I still wince remembering Wizardry 6's maps-as-a-raisable-skill, which meant spending your few, very precious skill points to see more on maps.

* Many more items hidden in bushes, etc, than in the Wizardry titles.

Not much else to note at this point. We both have work.

PS: Should have added that the music is awful. The later Wizardry titles had some decent music for the time, with allowances for technology and memory limitations, but that isn't the case, here.
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Piranjade: Quick question: Do you find the inventory system annoying?
I have watched a few streams so far and it looked really annoying to me but seeing something and having to do it yourself can feel different.
Very much so. I don't like a line system of 9 items. I can't speak for anybody else, but I prefer a crosshatch area where items can be sorted according to a user's given needs. Where I can see everything I've got at one time.
Post edited August 09, 2017 by Glazunov
Posted August 09, 2017
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groze: The way I see it, Vitek was trying to be ironic.
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Vitek: You are correct.

I was being sarcastic and wanted to mention that I think there are a lot of good RPG and that I don't think this one dated game is going to cause any kind of Incline in the genre.
I usually see word resurgence or something similar in these situations. Incline I know like inclination of things or to be inclined to something. Never have I heard it in connection with resurgence of game genre.
I see, thanks for pointing it out, I'm kinda terrible at detecting written irony and sarcasm as I don't usually like their use out of satirical contexts. Anyway, I'll have to agree with the point made then, although it seems that even though Grimoire hasn't revolutionized the genre, it has fostered quite a bit of debate around it.
Posted August 09, 2017
Oh no. It's going to have DRM too? I'll pass

https://steamcommunity.com/app/650670/discussions/0/1471967615862858084/#c1471967615862882811
Post edited August 09, 2017 by direspirefirewire
Posted August 09, 2017
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ShadowWulfe: There has to be a GOG release in the works? Right??? (or at least once he submits something, or someone has to remind him that GOG exists)
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JudasIscariot: I don't know of any release, I just want this game here as I played the Superdemo and I think it has the potential to be an excellent game once it's finished :)
Make it happen! Get your best people onto this, pronto! As you can see from the previous post, Cleve is getting corrupted by Steamtardation by the hour and a gog release is becoming less likely. I want to buy this game here, dammit!
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionSo, Grimoire...(1441 posts)(1441 posts)
(1441 posts)