You're right, I got Brasas and RWarehall's positions mixed up so there is little point in choosing RWarehall as chancellor unless to alleviate the possible risks of the next government.

"My communist past" by brasas

Chapter 1

........

Neah it was Mein Kampf and gog filtered it.

Bottom to top this time. Should be better.

Pretty much agreed just I don't trust RW as much as you do. Appreciate your point that it would be valuable to contrast the earlier Scene/RW gov with a potential RW/Scene gov.

At this time I can hardly imagine something happening that would change my intended votes. Yes to dedo/Scene. If that fails Yes to RW/whoever - but if he does not choose Scene I will find it super scummy.

Indeed. You didn't really need that weasel word. ;)

Will need to read better and follow through the logic. Appreciate the summary and for me it's the former (bolded) - that being ZFR.

Lots of meat here. This might be a bit disjointed as I thought through the reply earlier and don't want to spend as long now. Sorry... it will also be blunter.

A) +1 to avoid power play. Scene is the obvious play as chancellor regardless of president.

B)
1 - my self interest in being in a gov is NAI (not alignment indicative). I would lie if I said that has no weight to my vote, but really, I have nothing much for or against dedo, but I have against ZFR and I start distrusting RW more.
2 - late vote my ass. I voted as I said I would and indicated in advance I would likely boycott the vote until others had participated in the discussion. Slowing down play for discussion is pure liberal play. *
3 - No default voting is an heuristic for starting the game. I prefer it because of the data gathering angle. Others might prefer default Yes because of Liberal majority. Neither is alignment indicative per se.

Conclusion, I see you using AtE to throw shade at me. My relative quarterbacking of the game by 1st standing out as voting no and now slowing down the game I believe were valuable contributions but kudos on finding them the good argument to push for others to dislike. Anyway everyone by now seems to have understood the votes are at least as significant as the government results and I trust there is growing awareness that pushing for voting discussion is equally desirable. ** and ***

* You of all people know this without havign to read a strategy guide and therefore this argument alone from you is giving you some Hitler points IMO.
** consider getting blotunga to admit votng No is his logical play. If he votes Yes that will be revealing. Likewise if I vote No against logic and prog so far - but I have no reason to lie. Duh.
*** I think there is a meta gaming positive of the default No heuristic to help all players become involved but we can talk later on that.

Liking ZFR's play amazes me.

I think the voting record is hugely muddled because most people only realized the strategic importance of setting that prog half way. Is that voting analysis really what you are hanging the ZFR as liberal read?

I would appreciate a more comprehensive reads list from you as this seems to be somewhat of a sudden shift.

Still need to be careful that ZFR migth be covering for Hitler Scene. I am sure he is frustrated but he plays too well to not be pulling some mindfuckery.

As for investigation, if you are president then don't investigate RW as per the overall discussion we would want to skip him to get to greek faster. It almost hurts me to say that since RW is the one I'd really want to investigate myself if it came to that... but I think the play is to investigate me or blotunga. Please reply to this, does it change your mind?

Please don't be overconfident of your reads.

But I have Liberal answers ;) See answers to Lift.

Why is that scummy? My personal advantage is Liberal...
See the answers to Lift for longer answers.

And you are all way too late with this shade I hope. I signaled my shift to voting Yes ages ago. I'll vote Yes to your gov even, with clearly reasons and conditionals already given for that, despite being surer and surer you're Fascist.

*claps* Bravo!

This is not Liberal play in any scenario. :) And I respect you too much to believe you've cracked from stress... sure you are frustrated, but not broken. The question then becomes how much mindfuckery you're pulling with this. Because knowing you... you've actually told the truth for part of it.

Townies sacrifice in many ways. That's the game. What you should do if you're Liberal is cool off and come back with a reads list from your very unique perspective. You still have the towny weapon - your vote, and can still help your liberal majority win the game. But I can understand your not doing it - because you're scum ;P. So one question:

Why not voting for me? Too abrasive or some actual logic?

That's valid too. I just would prefer to test Brasas using Scene as a Chancellor and he can't be both since he'll be term locked.

But here's an idea: term locking doesn't prevent you from becoming the next president. So let's go with X+Scene followed by Y+you. (with X being dedo or RW and Y being Brasas or blotunga(if X=RW))
Greek as chancellor in the government after the next and then the next president after that might be good. Yes, it's 'power play' again, but Greek is the only player I would actually trust with that. I know that I gave him a choice and he enacted the liberal policy. And he was part of another liberal government.

@Brasas: the 'throwing shade' argument? Really? The classic accusation of scum players who run out of real arguments or explanation. Sure, it also comes often from overly sensitive town players or from newbies. The mis-conception: "Anyone who suspects me gets scum points!" You're not a newbie. So the question is: are you scum or are you just being overly sensitive to being questioned? I still can't decide, but your last reply seems somehow off. But part of the disagreement between us might come from the perception if your "always NO" play is any good or not. I can't see the benefit in it, while you seem to believe firmly that it is good play. Maybe that strategy is good in Resistance, which I never played. But I don't think it helped in this game in any way.

Of course. I thought this was the obvious way to continue. President from places 8-10 with me chancellor and then me president with you chancellor since we are the most trusted at the moment.

Yup, I think it is.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned the Greek as Chancellor then President two-step earlier although not calling it power play.

Now for the more substantive argument. Throwing shade is NAI - I'm not going back to check but I'm pretty sure I've gotten shade from dedo, greek, scene, ZFR and more recently RW and Lift.

Of all these the only ones where it felt somewhat scummy were you and RW. With greek it actually solidied my town read, with dedo likewise but less certainly. With ZFR it's perhaps the only * thing in his recent play I find NAI with a lot of scum pings in everything * else.

So just maybe my arguments for you being a bit scummy are not as superficial as - "hej, there's shade therefore he's scum". In fact you throwing shade at me is not really scummy, it's how you did it.

Your argument in a nutshell was that:
1) I voted late - and yet when I signaled it did anyone comment?
2) I should stop voting No - which I had already said I would do

Weak tea basically but all kosher particularly as I tend to walls of text and sometimes leaving implications implicit. Except that you are THE authority in the game and you should know better than others that slowing down the tempo is to the benefit of liberals. That is what puts a different color to the whole thing. And it's what I notice you didn't really reply to, choosing instead to continue focused on my no voting.

So maybe I'm oversensitive, but it's not to being questioned. It's to the possibility that in the block of greek / scene / lift a certain moustachoed Austrian might be hiding.

*hyperbole warning, I've dissected ZFR enough than I want to leave him in peace...

Usually yes. But I disagree with the generality of that statement. Taking it slow to create room for discussion is usually good for the liberals, yes. But stalling in the sense of not voting until you have asked all others about what they voted leaves the impression, that it was more important to you to be the last one to vote then to keep discussions going.
There is a distinct difference between:
"I am not ready to vote yet, because I think we should discuss *topic* first"
and
"I will vote last. What did you vote? And you? And you?"

The first one is teamplay and is good for the liberals, yes. The second one leaves the impression that it was more important for you to select you vote based on the votes of all others. To gauge whether you can tilt the scales with a 'Yes' to get a government you want into office, or whether it isn't going to be accepted anyhow and you can safely hide behind your default 'No'.

So, in your own words, it wasn't what you did (voting late) that appeared suspicious. It was how you did it (fishing for other votes) that left a bad after-taste. Doesn't necessarily mean that you are scum. Perhaps you had liberal reasons for wanting to know all votes before casting your own. But if you are liberal you should understand that this voting behaviour can lead to questions. ... However, your reaction to those questions being asked again feels a bit off.

As for me being the expert: specifically the voting stage plays quite differently here than on the table. The chancellor nomination is usually very extensively discussed. The voting, at least with the players I'm used to playing with, is usually quite quick. Remember that on the table everyone just places a card face down in front of him and everyone reveals at the same time. The point of this 'everyone votes without knowing the other cards and everyone reveals at the same time' is exactly to avoid your kind of play. To avoid that someone can select his vote based on the other votes already present.

Yes. Let's stick with that. The only question now is, should the next government be dedo+Scene or RW+Scene.

But maybe we can safely leave that to the votes after dedo has officially nominated Scene.

There is a problematic scenario with the dedo+scene option.

Dedo+scene pass a fascist policy.
Dedo investigates brasas.
Dedo tells us that brasas is fascist.
If we believe dedo, what do we do? The only choice for president would be Adalia.
If the same happens with RW and we believe him, we can at least go with blotunga.

I actually used random.org to get those 3 names for him (in case anyone did take those names in any way seriously). For you Brasas, since it doesn't matter what I say: more mindfucking.

Why? So after spending an hour analyzing and typing, scene pulls an accusation out of his... head and Brasas claims I slipped because I miswrote "your" instead of "you're".
If whether I write something or not is useless anyway then I choose to do the thing that doesn't waste my time.

I will not reply to the weakmanning of my accusation towards you but I will say this: Scene and myself are not the only players in this game...

Well... in such a case I will know dedo is Fascist. But I agree that for the rest of you that's small consolation. Still, I'd say in such a scenario and with the conviction I have that ZFR is fascist, the chance that Adalia is the 3rd one when I look also at Blotunga kusu or RW... I could live with those odds. Understand if others disagree.

I'll find my post where I was very explicit it was the first. I wanted to have reads from specific players before we proceeded and I implied I might do what I ended up doing. Cristi's replacement ended up making the pseudo boycott last much longer than I expected as she was one of those I wanted to provide reads.

My vote tracking was somethign else and I did not really consider it might be the proverbial drop in the bucket. I am typically sensitive and try to avoid quarterbacking because I am prone to do it. We had time to kill while we were waiting. I was doing it earlier anyway, but leaving blanks in my Excel where unsure. With ZFR being the controversial focus of a lot of discussion I decided to push a bit. I'm considering to do so again going forward... Scum otherwise can just say after the fact they did not give a vote a lot of thought. "Oh, sorry guys, I didn't realize my voting like that would be so critical". I think I was right to do it. As I told ZFR himself, if Cristi came back to vote yes (which happened but replacements get some leeway) he'd need one more vote shift from No to Yes. I think we all would have liked to know there was such a shift instead of seeing a 6 to 4 break putting the government through and not having a prog for some or all of the Yes votes.

I do appreciate your authoritarian... sorry, I meant authoritative ;) contributions. And so would like the table to discuss how they feel about openly asking others to state their votes and reasoning for such before actually doing it.

Here's my post... I needed to manually do the html quote

It's pretty simple here...
You have been the only one to vote against all 3 governments and all 3 governments passed liberal policies. If the game had gone differently and they had passed fascist policies, you'd be looking like a hero.

Now let's go further, your "default No" philosophy taken to the extreme means everyone votes down every government until we get chaos. Or taken just short of the extreme and we automatically vote down two governments and always vote in the third. Please explain to me how we learn anything by following your advice?

But somehow, you are trying to spin it so that no matter what results we see, your actions cannot be questioned at all. It doesn't work that way.

And with this last vote, you tried hard to find out how everyone was voting before placing your own vote last. I don't see an advantage for a liberal to do this. As a liberal, we don't know anything for sure, so it impossible for us to necessarily chose the right side for our votes. Hence, we all will vote on our best guesses. For a fascist, it might be life and death. There are only 3 of you (and Hitler) and you need to be very careful that if you expose yourself, you do it for gain.

--------------

My main problem with Dedo is the exchange starting after ZFR's post 257.

I thought ZFR's 257 post was very solid analysis and it corrected a few people who missed the concept. But Dedo's responses in posts 259 and 263 shows he either didn't "get it" or felt the need to defend Scene. There is absolutely no way Hitler is going to "test" for buddies at the expense if he is wrong of being excluded as a fascist.

Beyond that, Dedo's early posts seem to be just "agreeable", even supporting ZFR until Scene fights him, then he changes his mind. I don't like it. If it weren't for the fact that a fascist Scene could torpedo any government himself, and is the obvious chancellor at this point for the next government regardless, I'd think they were a team.

Some of this I just answered to Lift.

What I left is clear misrep so I'm answering it.

I was clear on few occasions the default No does not apply for the 3rd government proposal of a policy. A 3rd government even with full unknown entities is a good enough reason in my book to vote Yes and avoid chaos. You might have even noticed me saying I'd vote Yes to your government (regardless of chancellor choice) if dedo's proposal fails, although I still have you as scummier than him.

And I have never told anyone they should not question me... I have Liberal answers. Whether other liberals believe me who knows.

Fair. But my main problem with you is that you find ZFR play in any way towny. Some effort posts are not that hard for scum to fake... in other games you've done it, I've done it... and ZFR is also our type.

Mmmm!!!
I have guessed one of brasas' strategies and it's reaaaaally good.
But I can't say it loudly.
Brasas, just continue to do what you are doing.