When the game takes away control from the player for way too much of the game, and even takes away the most strategically interesting character because of it, I can judge the story, and I judge it in a significant negative light because of how much time it wastes.

I much prefer Final Fantasy 5.

That seemed sexual to you? Huh...

Sure, which is why I provided an example. But which question? The "How about games that do..." one? Because I responded to it. There is no how about, because those games already exist. And Leroux gives a good point about that!

So was that a yes to my question, ie. LGBT people and such should only be presented in a positive manner in games? That's exactly what makes it preachy, trying to show certain kinds of people only in a positive, or negative, light.

So getting back to OP's question about "modern feminist themes" in games, could those themes be presented also in a negative light (like in SJW Riot), or only positive? Why exactly?

Yes, I would consider it similarly preachy as games which would only present LGBT people (and other minorities) in a positive light. There's the hidden agenda of showing some group of people either in a positive, or negative, light.

If by "sexual" you mean "having a crush on you", yes, definitely. The way she is made to appear embarrassed after the hug, looking at you under the brows etc. Maybe it is a cultural thing then.

I just don't see why they would have added scenes like that to the game, other than to present to the player "see, that hot chick has a crush on you". It is not like her father is hugging and sweet-talking to you the same way either. Why not, if it is, as you say, completely non-romantic?

You didn't point to any games which depict LGBT people as evil characters. Maybe I haven't played enough Japanese games.

So my question was, if there are such games, are those the kind of exposure that is (also) needed, or is this a demand only for positive exposure of minorities?

Not at all. I'm sure if they're presented as people, which includes a realistic balance of positive and negative characters or sides to characters, in the same way that heterosexual characters are depicted, noone would have much grounds for complaints.


Can't answer that question because I'm not the OP and I still don't really know what she meant by "modern feminist themes". Although to me it seems both options you present here would kind of fall under your definiton of preachy, because they'd both be partial and one-sided.

But her father knew you in the previous game as well. There are many other characters (including males) that treat Gordon in a similar hero-worshippy embarrassed/amazed sort of way.

Weird. I feel you missed my response to this exact thing in my last post. Here, I'll quote it again, including the example (dismissing it as a "just some japanese game" seems odd, with studios like Nintendo, Sega, Konami, Capcom, etc. basically making up half of gaming identity- many people the world over played games like Streets of Rage and Vendetta), and my specific response to your question:
Couple that with Leroux's very valid point: if the vast oceans of games don't feature such a character at all, and then the ONLY time such a character is featured in a game is in a negative (especially stereotypical negative) way, then that just feeds into those stereotypes.

It's not without its acknowledged problematic aspects, though, such as the in-game ability to be able to revive characters suddenly being disabled due to story reasons.
Although that does bring the OP's question into a more interesting light (for me, at least)- looking for a game with modern feminist themes not in it's narrative/story (which historically, the OP appears less interested in), but in it's gameplay. I'm not sure what game applies to those conditions (something like Stardew Valley, maybe?), but I'd be curious if someone else brought up examples.

The thing is, by the time I played the game, I was a veteran of Final Fantasy, having played 1, 2 (really a simpified 4), and 3 (really 6), and I enjoyed the gameplay of them. FF6 even had some interesting positive aspects, like an asexual female main character, and a non-linear second half, though it did have some issues (poor balance, too many cutscenes in the first half). FF7 took FF6, threw out the good parts, added minigames that don't belong in an RPG, and also added load times and disk swaps that had never been previously present in the series.

Then I played Final Fantasy 5 years later and fell in love with that game and its job system.

Incidentally, in the Dragon Quest series, I can say that, from a feminist perspective, 4 is far better than 5. (Just look at Chapter 2 of DQ4, and compare it to DQ5's lack of strong women (well, maybe Deborah, but she wasn't in the original).)

In most games, at least those games I have played, the sexuality of the characters is normally not revealed. Apparently you are merely assuming they are hetero. As said, I have absolutely no idea of the sexual orientation and desires of e.g. Garrett (the thief) or JC Denton. And that's the way I generally like it, what they do in their bathroom and what kind of porno they watch in their freetime is not my business.

So, if some game developer stresses "hey, this character is LGBT you know?", it does raise the question to me, why exactly did the developer feel that needed to be pointed out.

True, and that is why I haven't given a dime to that kickstarter either. I prefer to leave such politics out of games, like if a game was trying to convince me that Trump is a maniac, or Obama was making US weak. A game shouldn't try to teach me what I should be thinking about either one. That is preachy.

Gold post. +1

Not sure if that "you" in the last sentence was meant as a general you or directed at me - in any case, I could list lots of characters that are supposed to be heterosexual, and not just assumed but pretty strongly hinted at, in the same way that you pointed to Alexis obviously having heterosexual feelings towards Gordon. But note that I never advocated that the sexuality of the characters should be revealed in (all) games. I just said that if it is revealed, it should not be stereotypical, biased and one-sided.


Well, on the one hand that's a personal preference, and not every game has to appeal to everyone, as long as there is enough diversity and choices in what to play. On the other hand, sure, good intentions alone are no guarantee for good writing, and it can get preachy or cringe-worthy easily, if the writing is bad. And I'm sure there are plenty of examples for that.

Let the theme be feminist.
As long as contents are maschilist ;)
War. Fight. Violence. Power... Nothing of this is feminist.

I always role play women in cRPG or tabletop RPG.
Because an RPG allow me to expperiment.

But they still move in a maschilist world.
How many enemies are men and how much women, for ecample?

Not sure it is the actual reason, but... Messing with Dark Souls truly is blasphemy ;)

Seconded!
Not sure about feminism, but it does offer a bunch of strong female characters throughout the series. Some character's background deals with being molested or simply made fun of and describes how they dealt with it. Not necessarily "in the spirit of feminism", but nonetheless revolving around themes feminism might claim as its own. Mind mostly it is a cyberpunk RPG with tactical combat, with cyberpunk bringing its own themes. Don't expect the epic story to be about sex, gender or feminism. It only takes its many female characters seriously as characters.
You've got your custom main, potentially female of course, as well as a party of three for hire.

Specifically I'd recommend SR: Dragonfall, the 2nd installment of the series. It is a common opinion to consider the 1st part kind of an unpolished game with the 2nd being the true thing. The third (SR: Hong Kong) has a good, yet less enthusiastically received plot and was blamed for "too much text" (which is mostly optional dialogues with neutrals met at the hub). SR:HK is most polished mechanically however. These games are plot-driven mind. Although I replayed them mostly to explore different builds and mechanical challenges it would be a waste to play them w/o regard for the plot to begin with.

Oh and of course one detail I cherish: Like Wizardry, Shadowrun is a party RPG that can be solo'd ^^

PS: Wonderful thread here. Had a lot of fun reading through it, never finding the answer as to what "modern feminist themes" are. Well done ;)

But unlike Wizardry 6, which I believe will not let you start the game with only one character; you need at least 2.

(Also unlike Bard's Tale 3, which requires certain classes (including Archmage and Chronomancer) to progress through the game.)

I know... Which is why I never really tried getting into that. The prospect of playing through all three games of that arc with the same character once had me start it - the fact it's impossible had me leave it. Oh well, can't expect the game to cater to my specific demands I guess.