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mondo84: It's amusing to me that some people are frustrated at the notion of other people wishing to have games DRM-free, especially when they're paying the developer directly and bypassing publishers.
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bazilisek: This attitude really annoys me. No one is frustrated here. DRM-free is good. Having options is good. No one is trying to pretend otherwise.

All I want (and knowing Simon, all he wants) is data. I am curious to know how many people care about DRM. How big the awareness and the whole DRM-free movement is. What is wrong about that? Why do you (general you, not personal) have to brand people who just want to know as fanboys/DRM lovers/whatever?

People have claimed DRM-free raises sales. All I'm asking is, well, does it? And by how much?
Your post seems defensive, not directed at me, but in general.

There's nothing wrong with being curious about how many people care about DRM-free games. However, from what I can tell by skimming these conversations (I try to stay out of the repetitive arguments), there are always certain people who feel obligated to question how much DRM-free matters. The claim for simply wanting data contains a subtext or implication of, "Most people don't care about having games DRM-free, so it shouldn't be a big deal."

While it's true that most people don't care about DRM, some do. Seems to me that people seek to trivialize DRM-free interests because they don't have a quantifiable majority in gaming consumers' preferences.

The fact that we always talk about it is validation enough for the "DRM-free movement" (I don't like that phrase). I'm a numbers man myself and always like to see measured data. But just because not many people care about DRM-free right now doesn't mean it's not important. History is full of issues that few people thought were important, but later the general public realized were important (e.g. gay rights).

Now I'm not saying DRM-free is some massive political/social movement. What I'm saying is that being favored by a small percentage of consumers doesn't render the concept of DRM-free less important. We've already seen backlash against the Steam ToS update from August. More and more people are starting to think about why they might like DRM-free options or backups for their games.

I bought a fair amount of Sierra games in the 90s. When Sierra disintegrated in the 2000s, they didn't contact me and ask me to return my games, denying me of access to them. But the nature of digital distribution now has people thinking longer term about accessing their games and having backups in case their distribution method goes kaput. Yes, yes, Steam has said they have a fail safe button. But I'm just making a general point about the mindset of people who prefer DRM-free.

I don't know about the DRM-free raising sales claims, as in I don't care to engage in these broad arguments of speculation and selective interpretation.

And while you emphasized you were talking about "general you" and not "personal you", the reason some people get labeled fanboys is because whenever someone asks about DRM-free options, they have to step in and tell them why DRM-free doesn't matter. Both sides start arguments, and it goes in circles, but on a site dedicated to DRM-free gaming, mostly full of people who care about having games DRM-free, some of the arguments seem contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

Bottom line - if people agree that having DRM-free options are good, then what is to argue about? Everybody wins. Steam fanboys can add the games to their Steam library. DRM-free fanboys can add the games to their start menu.

You mention data for DRM-free sales. That's just a snapshot. I think of it as a marathon, not a sprint. The data that would matter to me would be DRM-free sales now vs. a year ago, for example. And it's quite possible that the % of DRM-free sales could be smaller since Origin started and Steam continues to grow. But again the important aspect is that people do care about DRM-free options. Kickstarter has helped that. People are saying, "We don't want to pirate. We want to give our money to you. In return please allow us to back the game files up so that we install them whenever and wherever for our own personal use."

Some people like Coke. Others like Pepsi. Do I need to see sales figures and taste test data to validate the existence of two options for a type of product? No, I don't care. I'll just pick the one I like and be glad someone makes it while supporting them so they may continue to make that product or offer that service.
Post edited September 20, 2012 by mondo84
guise im back from my interdimensional trip and i can indeed confirm that the pledges feel by 70% in the alternate dimension where obsidian did not implement drm-free solutn
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Stiler: Instead of simply doing your generic "elves/dwarves/orcs" fantasy races have more mythological fantasy races/creatures. Things like Minotaurs, werewolves, centaurs, Satyr, , etc.

I'd love to have a game where you didn't have to play as your usual human/elf/dwarf/orc races.
Try Might & Magic VIII. You get Humans (Knight, Cleric, Necromancer/Lich after upgrade) Vampires, Dark Elves, Minotaurs, Trolls and... Dragons as Playable Races (though the Dragon is not playable from start, needs to be recruited)! Too Bad no Lizardman is playable
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Jarmo: 705 -> 482 -> 199 -> 156 -> 72 -> 93

Would it have been... say 50K without? Or another day of 72K? Or would the pledges hover around 100K no matter what?
Before announcement of DRM-free version it was getting about 2K per hour, so about 48K.
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mondo84: Your post seems defensive, not directed at me, but in general.
Well, it is defensive. DRM is a massive hornet's nest here, so I tread carefully.
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mondo84: There's nothing wrong with being curious about how many people care about DRM-free games. However, from what I can tell by skimming these conversations (I try to stay out of the repetitive arguments), there are always certain people who feel obligated to question how much DRM-free matters. The claim for simply wanting data contains a subtext or implication of, "Most people don't care about having games DRM-free, so it shouldn't be a big deal."
Well, yeah. That's the point. People will write long and angry forum posts whenever 2K decides to make another game a Steam exclusive, but how many lost sales does this translate to? And is it possible that for 2K, these lost sales are outweighed by Steam's indisputable benefits? Or in other words, is it a big deal?
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mondo84: While it's true that most people don't care about DRM, some do. Seems to me that people seek to trivialize DRM-free interests because they don't have a quantifiable majority in gaming consumers' preferences.

The fact that we always talk about it is validation enough for the "DRM-free movement" (I don't like that phrase). I'm a numbers man myself and always like to see measured data. But just because not many people care about DRM-free right now doesn't mean it's not important. History is full of issues that few people thought were important, but later the general public realized were important (e.g. gay rights).
That's why I chose "movement". Whenever I see "DRM-free revolution", I throw up in my mouth a little. (Which is, sadly, in every GOG installer ever.)

You are of course correct. I am not belittling the movement, I just want to know how big it is. Also, as much as I sympathise with the cause, I don't find myself sympathising with most of those promoting it at all.
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mondo84: And while you emphasized you were talking about "general you" and not "personal you", the reason some people get labeled fanboys is because whenever someone asks about DRM-free options, they have to step in and tell them why DRM-free doesn't matter. Both sides start arguments,

Bottom line - if people agree that having DRM-free options are good, then what is to argue about? Everybody wins. Steam fanboys can add the games to their Steam library. DRM-free fanboys can add the games to their start menu.
"Fanboys" is precisely the word I object to the most. If anything, I'm a fanboy of gaming in general. But neither of Steam, nor of GOG, neither of DRM, nor of DRM-free. This is what cripples the discussion before it even has a chance to develop.

Anyways, project Eternity, eh? Exciting stuff.

PS: Thank you for your time and attention. Let this be a lesson to all of you.
Post edited September 20, 2012 by bazilisek
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SimonG: Yeah, well this is nice, but a single pledge won't get a game funded. Unless we see an increase in pledges the next few days, I will remain convinced that the "DRM-free" crowd is only one thing: loud. And there are several reason those pledges should go up, so it would be even more telling if nothing happens.
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nijuu: You really are a cynical Steamboi fan.....
Because I don't fall in line with the "DRM free" marketing chant?

I guess you are either for an uncompromising DRM free stance or a Steam fanboi. Ah yes, people dealing in extremes, where do I not that from.
I added some edits, so you may have missed them.

And I thought it was obvious I used "fanboys" in my last paragraphs in a facetious, not literal or pejorative, sense.
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mondo84: I added some edits, so you may have missed them.

And I thought it was obvious I used "fanboys" in my last paragraphs in a facetious, not literal or pejorative, sense.
Yes, it was obvious. But many use it quite literally. I'm used to dealing with firebrands in discussions like this, so I apologise if I'm being too heavy-handed here.
You raise some good points. And yeah, I'd even say we're essentially in agreement. It's just that I'm fascinated by the whole DRM-free thing, and I like watching it evolve.
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SimonG: In the next few days all those people who held so far out because of "only Steam" will pledge. And that will be the closest we will ever get to some statistics on the issue.
*coughpaypalcough*
*ahem* So, how much did everyone pledge, out of curiosity?

I went $140. I really want to back Planetary Annihilation too, with its Paypal window still up, but you know what they say about cakes and eating them...
$ 35 so far. I might upgrade my pledge, though, thanks to the new all-digital tiers.
For our Mac friends, we are still working on a DRM free option, since GOG does not currently support the Mac.

Any news on gog.com working on Mac and GNU/Linux? Every day that passes this will be more necessary gog, those markets are increasing continually and Windows 8 will only make them bigger.
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mondo84: I added some edits, so you may have missed them.

And I thought it was obvious I used "fanboys" in my last paragraphs in a facetious, not literal or pejorative, sense.
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bazilisek: Yes, it was obvious. But many use it quite literally. I'm used to dealing with firebrands in discussions like this, so I apologise if I'm being too heavy-handed here.
You raise some good points. And yeah, I'd even say we're essentially in agreement. It's just that I'm fascinated by the whole DRM-free thing, and I like watching it evolve.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am a big proponent of DRM-free games. I might not be as vocal about it, but I love what GOG is trying to do. I also like that Kickstarter has given consumers an opportunity to voice their support for DRM-free games.

I think Steam is a nice, convenient service, but I find their client to be lacking in various features I would expect them to have. I grow tired of the "oooh Gaben my hero nom nom nom" stuff on places like reddit. In all the criticism of EA as a publisher, I'm more concerned about Valve and the strong grip they have on distribution. Services like Greenlight, having games prejudged based on whether they make it to Steam or not rather than evaluated upon release, in my opinion can do just as much harm as good.

I'm not Steam hater, but I just want to clarify that while I tried to respond objectively to you, I am a big believer in DRM-free and have reservations about Steam and DRM. When you mention that the evolution of DRM-free fascinates you, it seems dismissive. The earlier comment ("Let that be a lesson to all of you.") also seems counterproductive to fruitful discussion.

Everybody just be happy that Project Eternity is happening. Hell, I didn't really play the Black Isle or other RPGs (I get overwhelmed with and intimidated by huge, long games), but I'm excited for this. I'm even more excited that they joined with GOG to sell the game, because it means developers are listening to their customers.
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mondo84: The earlier comment ("Let that be a lesson to all of you.") also seems counterproductive to fruitful discussion.
:)))
Something tells me you missed the thread of the week.

I'm very happy Project Eternity is happening. It's everything I've been asking for. This is a great year in gaming.
Early bird in my case, I have enjoyed most of Obsidian's offerings in the past, a title fully controlled by them should come out even better. :)