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hedwards: His argument is bullshit is why I hold him in such low regards. The fact of the matter is that if there were something in that video worth my time, you should have enumerated it so that I didn't have to watch the video. I started watching the video and stopped when he started to go off on relativism. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be linking to it. It's just common courtesy.
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awalterj: Common courtesy is listening to what the person and in this case Hitchens has to say and then giving a reason why it's bullshit before calling it bullshit. You haven't given any reasons.

I don't have to enumerate any specific points he makes in the video because I agree with him on everything he says in the video and clearly said so, not just any specific part. All I did was invite you to watch it as it directly relates to the topic here. You're under no obligation to watch it if 20 minutes is too long.
That's not common courtesy, that's a recipe to waste a ton of time and energy that you can't get back. Hitchens has a well deserved reputation. A bit like that arsehole Randi, they sound great if you happen to agree with them, but they build their castles on a layer of bullshit that ensures that no matter how sound the rest of it is, it's still going to come tumbling down if you look too closely.

I think if you can't be bothered to provide a synopsis of what you think the video means, then there's very little point in viewing it as there's no way to know if it supports your argument or not.

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hedwards: Life is way too short to argue with somebody that's misapplying post-modernism rather than acknowledging that the boundaries are a bit soft and case by case.
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awalterj: I agree with you that life is too short for what we are doing here but yet we -are- here ("we" including you, as well), arguing with perhaps nothing really constructive coming out of it for anyone involved. Not that I expected anything else to happen, however the thread had to be made imho and everyone who posted in here is responsible for the length the thread has, including the detractors.
Debate isn't really a waste of time, but viewing a video that could easily be summarized with maybe a paragraph or to of text is. I mean presumably, you've viewed the video and know what you think it says. I can always view the video afterward to see if it does say that and whether he's supported his arguments adequately.

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hedwards: You think Christians don't do that? The big difference here is that Christians are more likely to live in countries with a large amount of wealth and military might to back it up. If you actually bother to read up on things like the terrorist groups in the Middle East, they weren't there before we started meddling in their affairs.
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awalterj: The influence of Western military presence in the Middle East is a related topic but would deserve an entirely separate discussion, an interesting one to debate. I'm mainly interested in discussing the topic of how and why religion at large (including Islam in this particular case) should -not- be exempt from ridicule and why it shouldn't be used as a tool to cut back on freedom of speech because that's a very dangerous thing to do, an inexcusable step backwards.
It's completely the question. Prior to that most of the infighting was kept amongst themselves. It wasn't until relatively recently that they started to focus on people not of their religion. For most of the history of Islam they converted people via economic incentives more than anything else. The main thing that changed was Western Interference and control over their areas. Osama Bin Ladin didn't have the resources to launch a terror campaign until the Russians tried to take Afghanistan or around that point in time.
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hedwards: I see, so in other words, you're not responsible for your contribution to the problem, gotcha. So, if I start talking smack about that 6'3" 275lbs., linebacker's mother I'm not at all responsible for the consequences. That's a wonderful way of looking at things. That's just how the human brain functions.
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awalterj: Answering with violence is how the uncivilized human brain functions, yes, including that of the leader of one of the biggest fear factories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25ccOZSO1M

If you insult a linebacker's mother and he physically assaults you, then that's entirely his responsibility, he makes that choice. Insulting anyone's mother is an asshat move and something no one should never do because it's cowardly and a weak move to play but hitting someone as retaliation for verbal insult is never justifiable. In fact, what Pope Francis says in the video above is hate speech in my opinion, far more than anything said in this thread. Violence is a line that you don't cross for verbal insult, ever.
If someone insults your mom, insult them back with a more sophisticated insult that actually hits home. Anyone insulting your mom is likely a turd and it should be easy to immediately find something with which to verbally smite them down. Or you can laugh at them, or ignore them. Physical assault, not an option. Whoever resorts to it shall have no excuse and should in my opinion not be given less punishment by the law due to "temporary unsoundness of mind".
Well, no, that's how the brain functions in every person. The degree to which one responds does have something to do with the outward response and as such intelligence of the person. But, less so than the options on the table. Hamas and the like react the way they do in large part because they haven't go the resources to respond in other ways. Just like how the early Americans responded via what the Brits almost certainly would have considered to be terrorism at the time. Fighting dirty and breaking the rules that other powers mostly adhered to.

Anyways, it's beyond debate that pissing people off is a great way to get them to go to the people that are in opposition to you. Most of those terrorist groups give generously to the people in order to be on their side. There are exceptions like ISIS, but we'll see how long that lasts. I doubt very much that when the entire rest of the Arab/Islamic world gets tired of it that it's going to last very long after that.
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Strijkbout: Thanks, but that guy started it himself and got personal in the first reply he gave me, I tried to be reasonable for a time but that only goes so far with me before the gloves come off and I recognize an extremist nutjob when I see one. :^)
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awalterj: Evidence shows otherwise, here's my first reply to you:

You wrote: " Let me get this straight, you think it is okay to ridicule/demonize an entire religion because it has rogue elements that abuse it?"

To which I replied: "Yes it's ok to ridicule an entire religion, without limits. Why on Earth would any sane person think religion should be exempt from ridicule? How big or small the rogue element is in any religion is irrelevant in that regard."

Note that I didn't call you insane and therefor didn't insult you in that post. It was a fair question, why indeed would any sane person think religion should be exempt from ridicule? If there is a viable reason, surely it can be debated.

As for you trying to be reasonable, another myth that can easily be debunked:
Your very first post in this thread was asking OP to put his address on the GOG wishlist he made for the game "so that assassins would know where to find him".

One of the most unsavory comments I've ever seen on these boards. If you think the game or the thread or the wishlist is stupid, you're welcome to share that opinion, fair enough. But instead, you decided to use freedom of speech to sabotage other people's freedom of speech and tried to do this via spreading fear from the very get-go. Fear is the path to the dark side, and you know what it leads to, even a fictional little green muppet knows it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIr1fjjjFQQ

You may not care about your own freedom of speech (which you never had to fight for because it was already there when you were born) but out of courtesy to future generations, don't throw out of the window what others after you might still want to have.
Here let me remind you and it goes on and on and on top of that you personally attacked me for being a fake liberal and what not and you put on the swastika armbelt yourself not me. As for the reaction I gave to Licurg, that isn't a personal attack and if he wants to be the troll to be insulting he should act responsible and not hide in anonimity.

Please do reread all of your hollow phrases about freedom, which surprised me that people apparently still fall for neocon indoctrination. Please don't give me that bullshit about others fighting for my freedom, I've never asked for Islamic insulting cartoons or games, if people want to be attentionwhores and deliberately explore how to attract extremists and get killed for it in the process, they get killed for their own stupidity not for freedom, worst of all, innocent bystanders become collateral in their quest for fame and glory and mass hysteria ensues.
Freedom of speech is worth nothing if the people who abuse it have no decency or respect for anyone/thing anyway.
And no that is no death sentence.
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Crewdroog: really?? really? siiiiiigh. blue flying muther freakin' elephants. *lights hair on fire*

edit: i think we don't understand the meaning of conform...
con·form
kənˈfôrm/
verb
verb: conform; 3rd person present: conforms; past tense: conformed; past participle: conformed; gerund or present participle: conforming

comply with rules, standards, or laws.
"the kitchen does not conform to hygiene regulations"
synonyms: comply with, abide by, obey, observe, follow, keep to, stick to, adhere to, uphold, heed, accept, go along with, fall in with, respect, defer to; More
satisfy, meet, fulfill
"visitors have to conform to our rules"
antonyms: flout
(of a person) behave according to socially acceptable conventions or standards.
"the pressure to conform"
synonyms: follow convention, be conventional, fit in, adapt, adjust, follow the crowd; More
comply, acquiesce, toe the line, follow the rules;
submit, yield;
informalplay it by the book, play by the rules
"they refuse to conform"
antonyms: rebel
be similar in form or type; agree.
"the countryside should conform to a certain idea of the picturesque"
synonyms: match, fit, suit, answer, agree with, be like, correspond to, be consistent with, measure up to, tally with, square with
"goods must conform to their description"
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Garrison72: Well, there is that bit about not depicting the prophet Mohammed. And yes, they've made it clear that rule applies to everyone. BTW, I have a dictionary, you didn't need to waste your time with that. :)
i felt it needed the obnoxious "omph" the WHOLE definition would bring. :)
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Garrison72: Christians gave up what Muslims are doing now centuries ago.
First, you're making a stupid generalization here. Those terrorists simply do not represent all muslims. In fact, most of these terrorist groups aren't even fighting to defend their "religion" or anything. Most of these groups are fighting for one thing: power, and they are using religion to achieve their goals. Through religion they seek legitimacy and inspiration to drive teenagers and young adults to join their cause.

With that out of the way, you are completely wrong if you think that extremist christians doing awful things in the name of God (like the muslims you are referring to) don't exist. There are just as many fundamentalist christians doing awful stuff and killing people out there as there are fundamentalist muslims. The thing is that the former doesn't get much cover on the press, the latter does.

The same applies to Judaism, just look at how many innocent palestinian civillians have been brutally killed by Isreal's army in recent history. The only difference is thata the jews in Israel responsible for this massacre have the government to back them up and the biggest ally one could ever have: the USA. Muslim terrorist groups don't have any of that and can't even come close to the firepower that Israel has. What Israel does is not very different from what islamic terrorists do, yet we don't call Israeli "terrorists". There are political reasons behind that. Israel has a huge army and all the developed contries to back it up. They can do whatever they want without being called out for it.

About christians, i don't know how things are where you live, but here it's becoming increasingly common for homosexuals to be killed by radical christians because of their sexual orientation "in the name of God". There are fundamentalist freaks in every religion, and with christianity it's no different. The only difference is that christians beating up homosexuals to death doesn't get as much coverage as artists getting killed by muslims.

And i think you forgot what happened in Ireland in recent history. Oh, and let's not forget about what happens in some christian-dominated african countries.

Notice that i'm not defending these terrorist groups by any means. They've been doing some horrible things and definitely need to be stopped. But "creating" a war between Christians and Muslims will not solve the issue. Actually, it will make things worse, because it will give more inspiration to drive more young people to join those groups.

Not to mention that Christianity and Islam are not very different in essence. Not only do they share historic connections, but both the Bible and the Quran have many similar passages, just with different interpretations.

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Garrison72: The very ideas of Islam are the problem. Islam is the only religion that requires everyone to conform, hence the Hebdo shootings.
Bullshit. Pretty much every religion requires everyone to conform, at least the traditional ones. That by itself is one of the biggest purposes of religions: to make people conform to a certain subset of rules, values and moral standards. Religion is one of most important forms of social control that we have.

That's precisely my biggest complaint against religions: every single one of them is trying to shovel down their faith down everyone's throats. And Christianity is no different. The thing with christianity is that it has the power of the government (in the western society, obviously) to back it up and enforce its rules.

Just look at how much conservative christians still dominate the parliament in many countries, either by having the most representatives or by lobby groups. And this domination is very visible when you look at subjects that christians do not accept, such as abortion, homosexual marriage, some scientific researches and legal use of some drugs. Basically, these christians can use the power of the law to enforce their views, which is why many countries still do not accept abortion, homosexual marriage, legal use of marijuana and other things.
*waves*
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Crewdroog: Blue flying elephants. *tap dances*
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awalterj: Alas, my flying blue elephant cult finally has one first member! I should stop complaining about religions and just make my own, the Church of Flying Blue Elephantism, the hip and trendy alternative to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (which is for old people). You can be my first cleric, now go and get me some followers to exploit please! The first command of the Church of the Flying Blue Elephant is that it's main prophet, humble awalterj, shall not be insulted. The Flying Blue Elephant has commanded this directly. Punishment for blasphemy is having to eat 10 big Tacos filled with hot chilli sauce, in under 5 minutes.

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Soccorro:
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awalterj:
hold on there, i have some stipulations, i just don't go joining psycho cults all willy-nilly. I only join ones in which I get silly hats and vestments. Also, what methods may i use in getting said followers? *drags in iron maiden*

hmm, i like tacos. awalterj is an asshat and not a true prophet. can i have my taco punishment now, please?

oh and just a side note, elephantism may be mixed up with elephantiasis, just sayin'.
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Sage103082: *waves*
hello young lady. have you heard about the good news?
Post edited February 15, 2015 by Crewdroog
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awalterj: Alas, my flying blue elephant cult finally has one first member! I should stop complaining about religions and just make my own, the Church of Flying Blue Elephantism, the hip and trendy alternative to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (which is for old people). You can be my first cleric, now go and get me some followers to exploit please! The first command of the Church of the Flying Blue Elephant is that it's main prophet, humble awalterj, shall not be insulted. The Flying Blue Elephant has commanded this directly. Punishment for blasphemy is having to eat 10 big Tacos filled with hot chilli sauce, in under 5 minutes.
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Crewdroog: hold on there, i have some stipulations, i just don't go joining psycho cults all willy-nilly. I only join ones in which I get silly hats and vestments. Also, what methods may i use in getting said followers? *drags in iron maiden*

hmm, i like tacos. awalterj is an asshat and not a true prophet. can i have my taco punishment now, please?

oh and just a side note, elephantism may be mixed up with elephantiasis, just sayin'.
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Sage103082: *waves*
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Crewdroog: hello young lady. have you heard about the good news?
You're the asshat dude. Try not being so clever, it's a bore to read. And apologies if we've offended one of your imaginary skygods. It's clearly got your panties in a twist.
Post edited February 15, 2015 by Garrison72
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Crewdroog: hold on there, i have some stipulations, i just don't go joining psycho cults all willy-nilly. I only join ones in which I get silly hats and vestments. Also, what methods may i use in getting said followers? *drags in iron maiden*

hmm, i like tacos. awalterj is an asshat and not a true prophet. can i have my taco punishment now, please?

oh and just a side note, elephantism may be mixed up with elephantiasis, just sayin'.

hello young lady. have you heard about the good news?
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Garrison72: You're the asshat dude. Try not being so clever, it's a bore to read.
I'm sorry, was I even directing this to you?

dude what the fuck are you talking about? this is a joke between awalterj and myself.
and i'm a fucking atheist!
Post edited February 15, 2015 by Crewdroog
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Licurg: Why did everyone stop arguing ? :(
You of all people starting a troll thread like this...

Yes yes, I know, "not all Romanians are vampires". But all vampires are Romanians! And "even if they were, not all vampires jump to your throat at night, trying the suck the life out of you". Yadda yadda, I've heard all that before.

The media hardly ever writes about vampires because they are afraid of you and you get a special treatment from them. Every year, more people die or get turned by vampires than die in freaky unicycling accidents.

I still remember the violent protests in Cluj over Leslie Nielsen's Dracula movie...
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tinyE: The only real legit reason for aggression of any kind is if someone disagrees with you over which end of a soft boiled egg you should eat from.
Why does the end matter? I always swallow my eggs whole. Am I doing it wrong?
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tinyE: The only real legit reason for aggression of any kind is if someone disagrees with you over which end of a soft boiled egg you should eat from.
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Lifthrasil: Why does the end matter? I always swallow my eggs whole. Am I doing it wrong?
If you're cold blooded, slither along the ground, have scaly skin and have some measure of domestication, I'd say you're doing it just right :)
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Licurg: Why did everyone stop arguing ? :(
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timppu: You of all people starting a troll thread like this...

Yes yes, I know, "not all Romanians are vampires". But all vampires are Romanians! And "even if they were, not all vampires jump to your throat at night, trying the suck the life out of you". Yadda yadda, I've heard all that before.

The media hardly ever writes about vampires because they are afraid of you and you get a special treatment from them. Every year, more people die or get turned by vampires than die in freaky unicycling accidents.
In some way, Licurg is a little bit our own Radu.... ^o^
http://youtu.be/NFeP2zad6ME
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Neobr10: Bullshit. Pretty much every religion requires everyone to conform, at least the traditional ones. That by itself is one of the biggest purposes of religions: to make people conform to a certain subset of rules, values and moral standards. Religion is one of most important forms of social control that we have.

That's precisely my biggest complaint against religions: every single one of them is trying to shovel down their faith down everyone's throats. And Christianity is no different. The thing with christianity is that it has the power of the government (in the western society, obviously) to back it up and enforce its rules.
This is completely wrong.
Either you have absolutely no idea about non-abrahamitic religions at all or are not counting anythinh outside of christianiy, judaism and islam.

Did you read the Quran?
Did you read the Dhammapada?
Did you read the Tao-Te-King?
Did you even read the whole Bible?
etc...

I can imagine the answer to all those questions.... but it doesn't make you stop babbling about all this.
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IwubCheeze: If you're cold blooded, slither along the ground, have scaly skin and have some measure of domestication, I'd say you're doing it just right :)
Zzzzzoundsss! I have been found out! How did zzzzat happen? And what issss thisss domessstication you ssspeak about?
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IwubCheeze: If you're cold blooded, slither along the ground, have scaly skin and have some measure of domestication, I'd say you're doing it just right :)
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Lifthrasil: Zzzzzoundsss! I have been found out! How did zzzzat happen? And what issss thisss domessstication you ssspeak about?
Just enough domestication to boil an egg and do it without arms and legs. Sounds like it would be tough but from the sounds of things, you are one smart scaly forum member :)