Put a stop to foreign policy that is blatantly criminal, adopt a financial system that doesn't necessitate constant economic growth for the benefit of those who aleady contol most of this world's wealth, learn how to live sustainably, etc, etc.

Sweet! Let's do it.

Or better still, how about we establish universal human rights for everyone -- finally?

If we were to work together to *that* end, maybe some of these less critical matters would get sorted as a consequence?

It seems you missed the point of this sub-thread.

1. TES is a WRPG series, not a JRPG series, unlike the other examples given.
2. TES games are relatively recent, compared to the others. Less than 2 years passed between Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate, and Arena didn't realy have that much of a storyline. In the meantime, some of the games I mentioned are much older: SaGa 1 even got (originally) released back in 1989!

She's probably too busy trying to figure out how to juggle the next post.

There's the issue at the end of the day, and precisely why people around the world are sick of white peoples' shit. There are people out there that don't want equality between men and women, for example, and this includes women (both women who want more power than men and women who think men should rule the world), just for one simple example. People are sick of us meddling in everyone else's business, instead of simply leading by example. The more i discuss the equality issues, and find arguments from people who are considered "disavantaged" who still argue to remain disadvantaged, I start asking questions. Sometimes, you find out that what you call equality isn't, and some groups of people find comfort in inequality, even if they're the ones being mistreated. Every time i meet someone who's pro-polygamy, for example, i discover that some (definitely not most) women actually prefer that due to base biological sexuality: the man who knows what he wants, is willing to "put her in her place," and can find entertainment without her, is biologically more sexy than the guy whom says "yes dear" to everything (there's other reasons, too, but that's usually the first defense, since it suggests the women involved actually prefer it), which is why Fifty Shades is now one of the best selling books of all time (even though it's not about polygamy).

Sure, you want to help those children in thailand who are being sold by their parents into having sex with people, but simply saying "that's not OK, and you're crazy for feeling that way" is not going to fix the problem there. They have their own worldview, and their own justifications, and it even solves a need. That's why it still happens. Most people around the world would say it's immoral and not OK to be transgendered and transexual. First, the transexual people would argue that you forfit your ability to produce kids for society, so places with strong tribal ties (pretty much everywhere) would say that you're hedonistic, and should have sacrificed your sexuality for the greater good of your society. As for transgender, the same groups, as well as other groups, will say that the premise of presenting a picture of being something that you're not can not only affect reproductive value (as dating a chick who secretly has a penis doesn't get pregnant), but you're also lying (so even homosexual approving cultures would condemn, since that lesbian chick you want to bang turns out to have a penis [and, yes, i've seen a few LGBT sites talking about this as an issue, so even that community is starting to eat itself alive over this]). Transphobia is a huge issue, right now, and that's just off in that direction.

But then turn around and here's a typical white male (i'm just guessing, and it's probably safe to assume this), going around telling someone precisely how their culture should look, and what is and isn't right, which then turns into a censorship issue. So should transgendered and transexual people wear a patch visibly identifying them, or is it OK for them to misrepresent themselves to others. I'm gonna give you a warning: don't answer. You'll have people arguing "love is love, a certain body part should not get in the way," but then you'll also have people saying "it can't be love if you can't be honest right off the bat." And that alone is ignoring that real relationships are usually over a period of time, but, hey, Brandon Teena was able to hide her identity for a long time.
I guess i did. I thought we were still also on the topic of favoring white males at this same split, too. That's what i get for skimming.

Depends on what are you talking about.

I think that Europe history is the history most western people are familiar with and thus can draw inspiration from it or use it as a setting. As for being interesting, it definitely had more notable events (I've already mentioned wars and scientific discoveries) than any other continent. Well, maybe except Asia. But I don't remember much people asking for more games about China history or inclusion of more asians.

Or you can prove me wrong?

Again, you go on a sllippery slope of poor wording. Yes, I think that there are more historically significant figures among white men. But it doesn't mean that I think that "white man" is more interesting than "black man" or "white woman". There are simply more archetypes among white men (conqurer Napoleon, scientist Einstein, king Richard) that aurhors can draw inspiration from. They of course can draw inspirationf from other groups too (queen Cleopatra, president Mandela, social activist Martin Luther King), but there are fewer of them, thus there are fewer imaginary characters inspired by them. Exactly because (as you said in previous comment) people don't need another <insert name of popular trope>.

Neigher.

Integration of what?

Yeah, it's kinda hilarious to see that most people who cry about "majority that is opressing everyone and enforce stereotypes and it's cultural norms" are from that very same "majority" and they are the ones who push for their vision of "cultural norms" on everyone.

That isn't the "shit" that people in the developing world are sick of. They're sick of being lied to and taken advantage of by people who hold themselves to be above the law and are ruled only by their appetites. The West has a long history of supporting radical extremists, as allies, and useful enemies. We rape, pillage, and plunder, and then tell ourselves that they hate us for our "freedom".

Universal human rights for all would end that kind of abuse and allow humanity to leave the jungle once and for all, and begin to build a society that is truly civilized and cultured.

You gave money to Nuremberg Rally 2.0?

A lot? The West has seen only one totalitarianism, two if we count European part of USSR/Russia. Those two are Third Reich/Nazi Germany and USSR under Stalin. And only under Stalin. Everything else were dictatorships, not totalitarianism. Kings had nothing to do with totalitarianism, and their power ranges dramatically from government to government. Communism and fascism are incredibly different, because for one, communism is theoretical concept from Karl Marx, while other is term for real world types of society. What you think of is socialism. And even than, they varied dramatically from case to case basis.

Totalitarianism didn't have any special power of telling someone who to love or hate, it only cultivated and amplified what was already there. Ideology is only natural element of being human, after all.

TES doesn't get any credit because it's rarely well written, and we would be talking about Arena, Daggerfall and Battlespire (only titles before Baldur's Gate and Fallout).

Any single country will have so many notable events in its history, recorded and unrecorded, that it takes people lifetimes to study them, therefore every continent will have more history than any one person can ever know. There's so much that's interesting anywhere anybody would care to look.

I think this is a very negative thing. Someone may believe that there are more historically significant figures among white men because all the history and stories that they have grown up with are dominated by the white men. If the same person were part of a society that had a more diverse set of popular characters, it might be easier for that person to assume that there are more non white-men in the world that are worthy of having stories told about them than white men that are. I believe that.


Stereotypes are certainly useful if you're trying to achieve certain things. One of the things that stereotypes are good for is overlooking individual people, developing the sort of mentality that treats people as what they are before they know who they are. It's certainly easier to reduce people to stereotypes, negative or positive. I don't think we should be going for what's easy.

Alright this might be the last I say on these issues. It's been interesting discussion but it's been getting me down a lot too. If I fail to reply to anybody don't think I'm shutting you out please!
Thanks for taking part everybody.

In a fashion it is a bad thing to push in this way. There is so much pushback against this sort of thing because people are trying to tell others what they should enjoy, which is a minor attack on a person's autonomy. The way to do it right is make more games with diversity, do a good job with them, and then people will choose them - or not- based on what they're interested in.

I would have no problem at all with more diverse games, there's plenty of room for more games in addition to the ones we already have, the problem comes because of the attempted destruction of more traditional games. Trying to take away my ability to enjoy a game with sexy women is not the same thing as making another game without sexy women in it for people to enjoy that like that sort of thing. One is trying to take away my autonomy and ability to choose the entertainment that I enjoy, the other is creating a more diverse array of games for people to choose from, so if they don't like sexy women in their game they have a game option for them.

Try reversing it and see how it sounds; if we had activists telling people that any game that doesn't have sexy women in it is problematic. Or any game that doesn't have a strong male lead is spreading toxic femininity or something. And if you don't like sexy women in your games then you're a neo-sexist and should be doxxed and hounded until you're fired from your job. It's ridiculous.

If those events were notable why they were unrecorded?

Exactly. One should care to look. But most players don't care to look. Thus a developers, who spent their time to dig up some plots and archetypes from obscure history, risk that their work wouldn't "resonate" with their audience.

Again, if devs themselves think that they want to bring some issue to the players at their own risk, then it's their choice. But if they want to play safe, who are you to blame them?

You are essenitally putting the cart before the horse. Most historically significant figures were leaders, scientists and artists of the Europe. Europeans were white and most Europeans who did partake in historical deeds were men. That's why history and stories are dominated by characters based on those European men.

Not the other way around. Most modern protagonists are white. That's why white men dominated in the past. Because that's what your reasoning is!

I think, you are wrong. Example - red haired people in World of Warcraft. Most NPCs in WoW are red. Does it affect WoW players? Do WoW players think that red haired people are more common that people who don't play WoW? I seriously doubt it, as I never heard WoW playres show some special interest in red haired people. Because by your logic they should.