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General discussionModeration standards - homophobia vs sexism, or longitudal maybe?(124 posts)(124 posts)
(124 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 18, 2018
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Lord_Kane: arent we all gay in our own ways?
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Crosmando: ...traps are gray.
What an astute observation. ;p
Posted July 18, 2018
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dtgreene: (This is why I de-wishlisted A Hat in Time; apparently the only character who could be seen as gay (or something along those lines) is one of the possible villains.)
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HereForTheBeer: How about a spoiler alert? Thanks.
Are you gay??? lol
Posted July 18, 2018
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dtgreene: (I could also mention: Imagine if a game allowed the player to keep slaves, encouraged the player to do so, and rewarded the player for doing so. Wouldn't that trouble many players?)
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Shadowstalker16: I too was troubled by the slavery system in Rome 2, but I find that this mod helps immensely : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=276179558&searchtext=sell+your+slaves
The thing is, its just a game, playing a game with slaves/slavery in it, does not reflect on you in any way. its just a mechanic, and having a mechanic does NOT in anyway indicate your implicit approval or disapproval.

However, to be fair, and frank I can see how that would upset people, so I get why such mods exist

Man I must seem like dr. jekyll and mr hyde at times holy shit.
Posted July 18, 2018
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dtgreene: (I could also mention: Imagine if a game allowed the player to keep slaves, encouraged the player to do so, and rewarded the player for doing so. Wouldn't that trouble many players?)
I would find such a game very interesting, and some games have at least gone somewhat in this direction (e.g. you can become a slaver in Fallout 2, and BG2 has that brothel with sex slaves in the Copper Coronet,,,you can choose not to free them, instead using their services).
Choice in an rpg should include the choice to do things generally regarded as evil today.
Post edited July 18, 2018 by morolf
Posted July 18, 2018
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amok: what is "longitudal maybe"?
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chevkoch: If this were the porn title thread, I'd change that to "longinudal maybe". Sorry, I know this likely does not help.
Longinudal Definitely
Posted July 19, 2018
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Shadowstalker16: I too was troubled by the slavery system in Rome 2, but I find that this mod helps immensely : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=276179558&searchtext=sell+your+slaves
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Lord_Kane: The thing is, its just a game, playing a game with slaves/slavery in it, does not reflect on you in any way. its just a mechanic, and having a mechanic does NOT in anyway indicate your implicit approval or disapproval.

However, to be fair, and frank I can see how that would upset people, so I get why such mods exist

Man I must seem like dr. jekyll and mr hyde at times holy shit.
Try using that argument in support of a game that allows you to round up and murder people on the basis of ethnicity. o.O

Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere, and we do, but we're failing badly in how we're going about it; primarily, I think, because we never ask ourselves why it is that we haven't overcome our predisposition to violence and exploitation -- the answer to which would lead us to identifying the core problem, and it's corresponding solution.

Does art imitate life, or does life imitate art? Neither, because it isn't an either/or proposition -- both occur at the same time, but the majority of us seem incapable of perceiving this logical fallacy, which strongly suggests that human civilization is philosophically bankrupt.
Post edited July 19, 2018 by richlind33
Posted July 19, 2018
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richlind33: the answer to which would lead us to identifying the core problem, and it's corresponding solution.
What is the core problem?
Posted July 19, 2018
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richlind33: the answer to which would lead us to identifying the core problem, and it's corresponding solution.
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morolf: What is the core problem?
Won't know until we answer the aforementioned question of why we remain predisposed to violence and exploitation.

But I will say that it isn't because human nature is inherently violent and selfish, because human nature is not immutable.
Post edited July 19, 2018 by richlind33
Posted July 19, 2018
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richlind33: I think, because we never ask ourselves why it is that we haven't overcome our predisposition to violence and exploitation
I'm not sure though that's true. Modern western societies are much less violent than even a few decades ago, let alone in the middle ages when murder rates were much higher as far as we can know.
Even the killing of animals for food is controversial among many Westerners today.
Of course such processes of pacification could eventually be reversed.
Posted July 19, 2018
low rated
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dtgreene: (I could also mention: Imagine if a game allowed the player to keep slaves, encouraged the player to do so, and rewarded the player for doing so. Wouldn't that trouble many players?)
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morolf: I would find such a game very interesting, and some games have at least gone somewhat in this direction (e.g. you can become a slaver in Fallout 2, and BG2 has that brothel with sex slaves in the Copper Coronet,,,you can choose not to free them, instead using their services).
Choice in an rpg should include the choice to do things generally regarded as evil today.
This isn't quite as bad as my example, provided a couple things are true:
1. There is a choice to be made, and both choices are viable (as in, the game doesn't get unreasonably difficult if you choose to not keep slaves).
2. The game doesn't encourage you to keep slaves; as in, the game doesn't present keeping slaves as the good and noble thing to do, and doesn't keep pressuring you to keep them.

In the hypothetical game I am talking about, keeping slaves would be presented as a good thing to do, and te game would be designed with the assumption that you would keep the slaves; if there's an option to not keep slaves, laking that option would either make the game frustratingly difficult, or would lead to an immediate game over or softlock.

Edit: Another thing that could be problematic, of course, is if an NPC who is clearlly supposed to be good (particularly if that character is a Paladin whose character sheet says they're Lawful Good) keeps slaves. Incidentally, Baldur's Gate 2 has racist characters who are Lawful Good, including the Paladin (albeit with a kit that lacks the abilities generally associated with that class).
Post edited July 19, 2018 by dtgreene
Posted July 19, 2018
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Lord_Kane: The thing is, its just a game, playing a game with slaves/slavery in it, does not reflect on you in any way. its just a mechanic, and having a mechanic does NOT in anyway indicate your implicit approval or disapproval.

However, to be fair, and frank I can see how that would upset people, so I get why such mods exist

Man I must seem like dr. jekyll and mr hyde at times holy shit.
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richlind33: Try using that argument in support of a game that allows you to round up and murder people on the basis of ethnicity. o.O

Obviously we have to draw a line somewhere, and we do, but we're failing badly in how we're going about it; primarily, I think, because we never ask ourselves why it is that we haven't overcome our predisposition to violence and exploitation -- the answer to which would lead us to identifying the core problem, and it's corresponding solution.

Does art imitate life, or does life imitate art? Neither, because it isn't an either/or proposition -- both occur at the same time, but the majority of us seem incapable of perceiving this logical fallacy, which strongly suggests that human civilization is philosophically bankrupt.
Well I wouldnt defend such a game honestly, but a side mechanic in a game thats about grand strategy, I dont know, considering that total war aims to be historically accurate in that sense, thats why I dont have a problem with the "slavery" mechanic in it, but to me it does not "reward" the player for using it or having it, its just a number or a statistic and slaves did drive the economy of the roman empire.

I dont know, humans are bankrupt by nature richlind and this will never change, hell you and I are bankrupt in some form in some way.

thats how I look at it at least.

but if you feel morally better by removing that mechanic from the game via a mod, all the power to you, after you give steam the money its "your" game technically.
Post edited July 19, 2018 by Lord_Kane
Posted July 19, 2018
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dtgreene: In the hypothetical game I am talking about, keeping slaves would be presented as a good thing to do
I agree that there needs to be a choice, a game purely focused around slavery, where it's mandatory would be questionable.
However, I'd like to see a representation of slavery in an rpg where it isn't depicted as just being evil like some sadistic cartoon villain. It would be great if one could play a character that is either indifferent towards slavery, regards it as a necessary evil ("hierarchies are needed for society to function, but we should treat slaves humanely") or explicitly affirms it ("the weak should serve the strong"), It would be interesting to have an rpg that isn't just based on present-day morality.

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dtgreene: Edit: Another thing that could be problematic, of course, is if an NPC who is clearlly supposed to be good (particularly if that character is a Paladin whose character sheet says they're Lawful Good) keeps slaves. Incidentally, Baldur's Gate 2 has racist characters who are Lawful Good, including the Paladin (albeit with a kit that lacks the abilities generally associated with that class).
Racist paladins in BG2? Who? Keldorn, because he hates Viconia?
Post edited July 19, 2018 by morolf
Posted July 19, 2018
The OP is very good and inventing sexism and homophobia in places where they don't exist.

I swear I can make a pizza and the OP will find something sexist about it since it was made by a man.

The mental gymnastics these mentally unstable people play in their minds is truly amazing.
Posted July 19, 2018
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richlind33: I think, because we never ask ourselves why it is that we haven't overcome our predisposition to violence and exploitation
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morolf: I'm not sure though that's true. Modern western societies are much less violent than even a few decades ago, let alone in the middle ages when murder rates were much higher as far as we can know.
Even the killing of animals for food is controversial among many Westerners today.
Of course such processes of pacification could eventually be reversed.
It appears that way because you aren't looking at it in the context of globalized society. The worst of our violence occurs in places we tend not to look. The five permanent members of the UN Security Council, with the inclusion of Israel, constitute the greatest threat to international peace and security, which completely obviates it's purpose. And it shows, in places like the Middle East, the Balkans, Ukraine, Latin America, Africa -- all the places where violence occurs on a massive scale, day in and day out.
Posted July 19, 2018
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tort1234: The OP is very good and inventing sexism and homophobia in places where they don't exist.
This is true.

She should stick to where they actually do exist, like in every posts you have ever made here. :D
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionModeration standards - homophobia vs sexism, or longitudal maybe?(124 posts)(124 posts)
(124 posts)