I wish, but unfortunately it looks to be going the other way round. The most radical branches of Islam are gaining power all the time and the moderates that would in the end lead to a reformed Islam are either radicalized or hunted down. Don't forget, that most victims of the IS are still muslims and just like with the catholic inquisition back then, apostates and supposed apostates are the primary targets. "Unity" comes first for such people and unfortunately, they got the Quran literally on their side.
There was a time when I thought that a reformed Islam that doesn't idolize Muhammad would be possible on a big scale, but frankly, I don't see that anymore.

To me it looks like the radicals are painting themselves into a corner.
Yes we hear about a lot of muslims with a western upbringing that move to ISIS but we also hear about many of them trying to leave when they're there.
Yes most violence are among various muslims. But what would happen if that go further? Instead of some sort of civil war you'll have separated groups like countries having at each others throats. Open trade and a high level of bilateral talks and trade would not be possible so they would choke themselves.

On the other hand look what's happening with Iran. Suddenly there are no heavy sanctions and if there is anything that can open up a country it's trade. Trade have a almost explosive effect and that's why many dictatorial regimes of all kinds try to control it so hard.
Also the oil. The oil war is massive and the question is how long can the middle east countries keep this up? If that turns south they have to open up or commit suicide.
I think trade will start to open up the region to new ideas.

Islam it's not a problem, education is. And before someone accuse me of some kind of religious love, I'm an atheist, and notice that I'm not the usual atheist nut who is screaming "religion sucks".

You do exactly like people in my country, Romania, who blame gypsies for their behavior. Yes, the gypsies are a problem, a problem of education. When you mention that, in my country, someone will immediately counter with the usual "but they have free school". Yes, they do have free schools, but most of them are illiterate. You can't expect too much from an illiterate parent.

Yes and no. A religion have to evolve with the world or there will be problems. It doesn't matter if you have the best educated people in the world that live under a medieval religion which makes the laws.
Though that educated people sure makes it easier to evolve that religion. That's why I said above that a good education for all citizens is a good way to start.

Maybe you haven't heard, but it isn't like nobody would trade with the IS.
The main income of the IS is created by selling oil.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Who-Is-Buying-The-Islamic-States-Illegal-Oil.html

I know but there is a big difference between trade like that and full open trade. There will always be blockade breakers and smugglers. You need a full open bilateral trade if you want to change a society significantly.

Yeah, but those controlling the smuggling don't want to change their society significantly, that's the point.
They want everything to be just like in medieval times with an exception for weapons of course.

Yes but again look at what's happening in Iran. The countries (USA and Iran.) simply decided to "Let's talk.". Diplomacy over the heads of all interests like that. Truly bilateral talk. And so far it have worked great.

maybe there was, it just wasn't successfull like "our" reformation ...

Afghanistan, 1920s alas, the population wasn't happy about their weirdly progressive king and he had to give up power to prevent a civil war several years later.

or similar, look at the modernization efforts in Iran during the 50-70s. If it weren't for the revolution in 1979 there would be no compulsory islamic dress code, no segregation by gender, minimum age of marriage would still be 18 not 13, etc, etc

I think there is enough evidence to show that even islamic societies try/tried to adapt to a more modern world view.

Absolutely. They've had a couple failed attempts but so had christianity. I've lost count of christian religious variants that got eradicated. Their reformation simply yet have to catch on. You're right about that.

I'm the one that's sorry. :( I cannot imagine that you really doubted me and either didn't check, or didn't check well enough...

Emphasis is mine.



Now to your actual point. Can you go into a bit more detail why you think the legal system is not an example of threats? Where I come from, expressions such as "threat of punishment" or "threat of imprisonment" are common and are used to describe how justice systems work.

I also want to point out I never said threats are inherently unjust... this is another false dilemma you are implying by drawing such a comparison to the just punishment or imprisonment of a criminal... if it is justified, it is not a threat. It can be both babark... not that jamys' threat was justified of course...

Edit: corrected the quote #

Hmmm... I seem to remember the politicians and the news channels playing the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil game. Trying as much as possible to hide or downplay that something significant had happened at all... until it was basically unavoidable as the size of it just meant the information got out - at which point some of them acted to get in front of the parade and ride the wave. So maybe your hypothesis needs a bit more of work. Or you already conveniently forgot about that blatant self-censorship?

How about you don't let your convictions of who are the victims and who are the aggressors get in the way of the truth?

See, at least I respect you enough to not pretend you're somone's puppet.

My guess is this is a symptom of rich countries with very poor countries as (Sort of.) next door neighbours.

I'm kinda tired of all the sympathy they get from us down there in their broken countries and when they get here. They've made the fucking mess and now they should live in it until they clean it up. They can't expect to fuck things up so much and then just leave and get a much better life here.

Yes we in the western world have messed them up a lot but for fucks sake I'm tired of that excuse. You can't use that forever in every situation.

Edit: Now helping them build their countries again is another matter. I'm all for that. Usually both win in a situation like that.

A big warning concerning those type of videos that I see popping up in English-speaking discussions or "misnamed" on youtube:

They're mostly "video archives" of the usual crime culture in French social housings areas and aren't directly related to the current refugee crisis. French-speaking Europeans are aware of this for a very long time (remember the movie "La Haine" by Kassovitz). And in fact, in most cases, nowadays offenders that you see in those kind of documentaries have been born and grew up in Europe (the "third-generation" as we call them). So as a general remark take those videos with a grain of salt when they're considered "new".....

PS: in the video, they're actually civil cops dealing with youngsters in social suburbs. If you want to see more of those type of stuff look for tv shows like "90' enquête", "envoyé spécial" or "compléments d'enquête" then you'll think Europe is a big favella :o)