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General discussionMeanwhile in Köln/Cologne.... (warning: politics inside)(569 posts) (569 posts) 
(569 posts) 
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: The root of the problem as I see it is that Islam is still Medieval. Other religions try to adapt with varying degrees of success to a evolving world but important Islamic leaders seems to flat out refuse this. They haven't had much of a reformation at all.
Unless Islamic religious leaders and followers doesn't want to be some sort of global pariah they need a massive education program. No poverty isn't the root of the problem. Look at the big Islamic countries in the middle east. They're floating on oil. Use all that wealth to step into the 20th century at least I say.

But there is hope that something is happening. If going by the western media I can get access to Islam seems to be schizophrenic. Grand leaders in the Islamic heartlands scream what is essentially "Anger and violence." while Islamic leaders in the western world say "Islam is a religion of love and peace.". I get a feeling the western world Islamic leaders can and are affecting some sort of change in Islams home countries. Time will tell I guess.
I wish, but unfortunately it looks to be going the other way round. The most radical branches of Islam are gaining power all the time and the moderates that would in the end lead to a reformed Islam are either radicalized or hunted down. Don't forget, that most victims of the IS are still muslims and just like with the catholic inquisition back then, apostates and supposed apostates are the primary targets. "Unity" comes first for such people and unfortunately, they got the Quran literally on their side.
There was a time when I thought that a reformed Islam that doesn't idolize Muhammad would be possible on a big scale, but frankly, I don't see that anymore.
Post edited January 19, 2016 by Klumpen0815
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: The root of the problem as I see it is that Islam is still Medieval. Other religions try to adapt with varying degrees of success to a evolving world but important Islamic leaders seems to flat out refuse this. They haven't had much of a reformation at all.
Unless Islamic religious leaders and followers doesn't want to be some sort of global pariah they need a massive education program. No poverty isn't the root of the problem. Look at the big Islamic countries in the middle east. They're floating on oil. Use all that wealth to step into the 20th century at least I say.

But there is hope that something is happening. If going by the western media I can get access to Islam seems to be schizophrenic. Grand leaders in the Islamic heartlands scream what is essentially "Anger and violence." while Islamic leaders in the western world say "Islam is a religion of love and peace.". I get a feeling the western world Islamic leaders can and are affecting some sort of change in Islams home countries. Time will tell I guess.
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Klumpen0815: I wish, but unfortunaltely it looks to be going the other way round. The most radical branches of Islam are gaining power all the time and the moderates that would in the end lead to a reformed Islam are either radicalized or hunted down. Don't forget, that most victims of the IS are still muslims and just like with the catholic inquisition back then, apostates and supposed apostates are the primary targets. "Unity" comes first for such people and unfortunately, they got the Quran literally on their side.
There was a time when I thought that a reformed Islam that doesn't idolize Muhammad would be possible on a big scale, but frankly, I don't see that anymore.
To me it looks like the radicals are painting themselves into a corner.
Yes we hear about a lot of muslims with a western upbringing that move to ISIS but we also hear about many of them trying to leave when they're there.
Yes most violence are among various muslims. But what would happen if that go further? Instead of some sort of civil war you'll have separated groups like countries having at each others throats. Open trade and a high level of bilateral talks and trade would not be possible so they would choke themselves.

On the other hand look what's happening with Iran. Suddenly there are no heavy sanctions and if there is anything that can open up a country it's trade. Trade have a almost explosive effect and that's why many dictatorial regimes of all kinds try to control it so hard.
Also the oil. The oil war is massive and the question is how long can the middle east countries keep this up? If that turns south they have to open up or commit suicide.
I think trade will start to open up the region to new ideas.
Post edited January 19, 2016 by Tarm
Posted January 19, 2016
Islam it's not a problem, education is. And before someone accuse me of some kind of religious love, I'm an atheist, and notice that I'm not the usual atheist nut who is screaming "religion sucks".

You do exactly like people in my country, Romania, who blame gypsies for their behavior. Yes, the gypsies are a problem, a problem of education. When you mention that, in my country, someone will immediately counter with the usual "but they have free school". Yes, they do have free schools, but most of them are illiterate. You can't expect too much from an illiterate parent.
Posted January 19, 2016
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OlivawR: Islam it's not a problem, education is. And before someone accuse me of some kind of religious love, I'm an atheist, and notice that I'm not the usual atheist nut who is screaming "religion sucks".

You do exactly like people in my country, Romania, who blame gypsies for their behavior. Yes, the gypsies are a problem, a problem of education. When you mention that, in my country, someone will immediately counter with the usual "but they have free school". Yes, they do have free schools, but most of them are illiterate. You can't expect too much from an illiterate parent.
Yes and no. A religion have to evolve with the world or there will be problems. It doesn't matter if you have the best educated people in the world that live under a medieval religion which makes the laws.
Though that educated people sure makes it easier to evolve that religion. That's why I said above that a good education for all citizens is a good way to start.
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: To me it looks like the radicals are painting themselves into a corner.
Yes we hear about a lot of muslims with a western upbringing that move to ISIS but we also hear about many of them trying to leave when they're there.
Yes most violence are among various muslims. But what would happen if that go further? Instead of some sort of civil war you'll have separated groups like countries having at each others throats. Open trade and a high level of bilateral talks and trade would not be possible so they would choke themselves.

On the other hand look what's happening with Iran. Suddenly there are no heavy sanctions and if there is anything that can open up a country it's trade. Trade have a almost explosive effect and that's why many dictatorial regimes of all kinds try to control it so hard.
Also the oil. The oil war is massive and the question is how long can the middle east countries keep this up? If that turns south they have to open up or commit suicide.
I think trade will start to open up the region to new ideas.
Maybe you haven't heard, but it isn't like nobody would trade with the IS.
The main income of the IS is created by selling oil.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Who-Is-Buying-The-Islamic-States-Illegal-Oil.html
Post edited January 19, 2016 by Klumpen0815
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: To me it looks like the radicals are painting themselves into a corner.
Yes we hear about a lot of muslims with a western upbringing that move to ISIS but we also hear about many of them trying to leave when they're there.
Yes most violence are among various muslims. But what would happen if that go further? Instead of some sort of civil war you'll have separated groups like countries having at each others throats. Open trade and a high level of bilateral talks and trade would not be possible so they would choke themselves.

On the other hand look what's happening with Iran. Suddenly there are no heavy sanctions and if there is anything that can open up a country it's trade. Trade have a almost explosive effect and that's why many dictatorial regimes of all kinds try to control it so hard.
Also the oil. The oil war is massive and the question is how long can the middle east countries keep this up? If that turns south they have to open up or commit suicide.
I think trade will start to open up the region to new ideas.
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Klumpen0815: Maybe you haven't heard, but it isn't like nobody would trade with the IS.
The main income of the IS is created by selling oil.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Who-Is-Buying-The-Islamic-States-Illegal-Oil.html
I know but there is a big difference between trade like that and full open trade. There will always be blockade breakers and smugglers. You need a full open bilateral trade if you want to change a society significantly.
Posted January 19, 2016
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Klumpen0815: Maybe you haven't heard, but it isn't like nobody would trade with the IS.
The main income of the IS is created by selling oil.
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Who-Is-Buying-The-Islamic-States-Illegal-Oil.html
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Tarm: I know but there is a big difference between trade like that and full open trade. There will always be blockade breakers and smugglers. You need a full open bilateral trade if you want to change a society significantly.
Yeah, but those controlling the smuggling don't want to change their society significantly, that's the point.
They want everything to be just like in medieval times with an exception for weapons of course.
Post edited January 19, 2016 by Klumpen0815
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: I know but there is a big difference between trade like that and full open trade. There will always be blockade breakers and smugglers. You need a full open bilateral trade if you want to change a society significantly.
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Klumpen0815: Yeah, but those controlling the smuggling don't want to change their society significantly, that's the point.
They want everything to be just like in medieval times with an exception for weapons of course.
Yes but again look at what's happening in Iran. The countries (USA and Iran.) simply decided to "Let's talk.". Diplomacy over the heads of all interests like that. Truly bilateral talk. And so far it have worked great.
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: The root of the problem as I see it is that Islam is still Medieval. Other religions try to adapt with varying degrees of success to a evolving world but important Islamic leaders seems to flat out refuse this. They haven't had much of a reformation at all.
maybe there was, it just wasn't successfull like "our" reformation ...

Afghanistan, 1920s

King Amanullah Khan publicly campaigned against the veil, against polygamy, and encouraged education of girls not just in Kabul but also in the countryside. At a public function, Amanullah said that "Islam did not require women to cover their bodies or wear any special kind of veil". At the conclusion of the speech, Queen Soraya tore off her veil (hejab) in public and the wives of other officials present at the meeting followed this example.
[...]
In 1921, he created a law that abolished forced marriage, child marriage, bride price, and put restrictions on polygamy, a common practice among households in Afghanistan.
alas, the population wasn't happy about their weirdly progressive king and he had to give up power to prevent a civil war several years later.

or similar, look at the modernization efforts in Iran during the 50-70s. If it weren't for the revolution in 1979 there would be no compulsory islamic dress code, no segregation by gender, minimum age of marriage would still be 18 not 13, etc, etc

I think there is enough evidence to show that even islamic societies try/tried to adapt to a more modern world view.
Posted January 19, 2016
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Tarm: The root of the problem as I see it is that Islam is still Medieval. Other religions try to adapt with varying degrees of success to a evolving world but important Islamic leaders seems to flat out refuse this. They haven't had much of a reformation at all.
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immi101: maybe there was, it just wasn't successfull like "our" reformation ...

Afghanistan, 1920s

King Amanullah Khan publicly campaigned against the veil, against polygamy, and encouraged education of girls not just in Kabul but also in the countryside. At a public function, Amanullah said that "Islam did not require women to cover their bodies or wear any special kind of veil". At the conclusion of the speech, Queen Soraya tore off her veil (hejab) in public and the wives of other officials present at the meeting followed this example.
[...]
In 1921, he created a law that abolished forced marriage, child marriage, bride price, and put restrictions on polygamy, a common practice among households in Afghanistan.
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immi101: alas, the population wasn't happy about their weirdly progressive king and he had to give up power to prevent a civil war several years later.

or similar, look at the modernization efforts in Iran during the 50-70s. If it weren't for the revolution in 1979 there would be no compulsory islamic dress code, no segregation by gender, minimum age of marriage would still be 18 not 13, etc, etc

I think there is enough evidence to show that even islamic societies try/tried to adapt to a more modern world view.
Absolutely. They've had a couple failed attempts but so had christianity. I've lost count of christian religious variants that got eradicated. Their reformation simply yet have to catch on. You're right about that.
Posted January 19, 2016
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babark: ... you're the only one who saw it as a threat. Even klumpen, in his initial response, made absolutely no mention of a threat ... snip
I'm the one that's sorry. :( I cannot imagine that you really doubted me and either didn't check, or didn't check well enough...

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Klumpen0815: You are disgusting beyond words.

This is what ideologies to do people, the worst slander and hatred without a second thought.

I won't even delve into your recurring threats.
Emphasis is mine.



Now to your actual point. Can you go into a bit more detail why you think the legal system is not an example of threats? Where I come from, expressions such as "threat of punishment" or "threat of imprisonment" are common and are used to describe how justice systems work.

I also want to point out I never said threats are inherently unjust... this is another false dilemma you are implying by drawing such a comparison to the just punishment or imprisonment of a criminal... if it is justified, it is not a threat. It can be both babark... not that jamys' threat was justified of course...

Edit: corrected the quote #
Post edited January 19, 2016 by Brasas
Posted January 19, 2016
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OlivawR: Few months ago Greece was Europe's number 1 problem and you filled the forum with economic/political crap, now Greece is all fine and dandy and it's the immigrants. Deeply convictions... more like whatever the politicians and news channels decided is a problem convictions.
Hmmm... I seem to remember the politicians and the news channels playing the see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil game. Trying as much as possible to hide or downplay that something significant had happened at all... until it was basically unavoidable as the size of it just meant the information got out - at which point some of them acted to get in front of the parade and ride the wave. So maybe your hypothesis needs a bit more of work. Or you already conveniently forgot about that blatant self-censorship?

How about you don't let your convictions of who are the victims and who are the aggressors get in the way of the truth?

See, at least I respect you enough to not pretend you're somone's puppet.
Posted January 20, 2016
Bad things are escalating in Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHX5jsomq_U
Posted January 20, 2016
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sasuke12: Bad things are escalating in Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHX5jsomq_U
My guess is this is a symptom of rich countries with very poor countries as (Sort of.) next door neighbours.

I'm kinda tired of all the sympathy they get from us down there in their broken countries and when they get here. They've made the fucking mess and now they should live in it until they clean it up. They can't expect to fuck things up so much and then just leave and get a much better life here.

Yes we in the western world have messed them up a lot but for fucks sake I'm tired of that excuse. You can't use that forever in every situation.

Edit: Now helping them build their countries again is another matter. I'm all for that. Usually both win in a situation like that.
Post edited January 20, 2016 by Tarm
Posted January 20, 2016
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sasuke12: Bad things are escalating in Europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHX5jsomq_U
A big warning concerning those type of videos that I see popping up in English-speaking discussions or "misnamed" on youtube:

They're mostly "video archives" of the usual crime culture in French social housings areas and aren't directly related to the current refugee crisis. French-speaking Europeans are aware of this for a very long time (remember the movie "La Haine" by Kassovitz). And in fact, in most cases, nowadays offenders that you see in those kind of documentaries have been born and grew up in Europe (the "third-generation" as we call them). So as a general remark take those videos with a grain of salt when they're considered "new".....

PS: in the video, they're actually civil cops dealing with youngsters in social suburbs. If you want to see more of those type of stuff look for tv shows like "90' enquête", "envoyé spécial" or "compléments d'enquête" then you'll think Europe is a big favella :o)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionMeanwhile in Köln/Cologne.... (warning: politics inside)(569 posts) (569 posts) 
(569 posts)