Shadowstalker16: So you're saying that if a normal child of any sex is left in isolation from society until adulthood, he / she will not have a gender? Or how do you explain hormones being used to change gender?
Starmaker: Hormones are used to change physical appearance to match infinity-mirrored society's expectations to enable the person to live a normal life.
Shadowstalker16: And how does anyone get born with the wrong sex for their gender if gender is socially constructed?
Starmaker: No one is born with the "wrong sex for their gender". Humans are born. Humans have various biological characteristics, some of which correlate. Gender is typically assigned by other people on the basis of
some of these characteristics (the vast majority of people don't test chromosomes). Then the child acquires an identity, including a gender identity. Sometimes this identity is vastly different from the child's future prospects. This sucks and needs remedying.
Shadowstalker16: Or of course explain the case of the Canadian kid who was recommended to be raised as a girl after a failed circumcision damaged his genitals, and he still didn't feel female despite social ''constructing'' to make him think he was. Please answer.
Starmaker: I seriously don't see any contradiction. You can't reliably raise a person to be a man (or a woman), regardless of their genitals. Social conditioning informs a child there are these two options, the child decides on what he or she is. This decision, the child's decision, is so important that, in cases of gender dysphoria, surgery is preferable to dissuading the person. That's why you can't persuade a boy he is in fact a girl just because he doesn't have a dick, regardless of whether the dick was cut off or never existed in the first palce.
Shadowstalker16: Gender roles are different from biological gender. Gender roles vary across cultures slightly but biological gender does not. Because its not socially constructed.
Starmaker: There's no such thing as biological gender.
Shadowstalker16: Children's bodies are different internally. The amount of hormones to be secreted are different in girls and boys. Taking away genitals doesn't make them gender neutral nor does raising them as the opposite gender.
Starmaker: All bodies are different, in the amount of various hormones, presense or absence of various reproductive organs, breast size, body hair allocation, etc. I know a woman (idenfities as a woman, XX, vagina, uterus, ovaries) who has so much testosterone she has hair all over her chest and back, and can't have children. I also know a woman (identifies as a woman,
XY, vagina, uterus, ovaries) with perfectly feminine amounts of testosterone; she discovered she was in fact XY in her late teens.
Shadowstalker16: And how the hell does this ''identification'' thing work? You have some guarantee that every child who sees a film has the same experience or draws the same conclusions? Or that they even draw a parallel with the fictional world and the real one at all? Especially in kids' shows?
Starmaker: Each child draws their own conclusions, but the (Western) culture is roughly the same, so, yes, the conclusions drawn by mentally sound children from objective, independently existing reality must be similar.
Shadowstalker16: Its like putting 3 ideologically different politicians in the same room, showing them some video clips and saying all of them will take way the same thing or have the same experience. Its absurd and unscientific and fearmongering. Its just a ''think of the children'' appeal with no basis in fact.
Starmaker: What the fuck does this even mean.
Shadowstalker16: And that's not even close to a permanent solution. People who undergo the operation still have a much higher suicide rate than the reborn fully healthy individuals people like to claim they become.
Starmaker: People who have chemo tend to die from cancer. Your point?
Shadowstalker16: And often they experience dysphoria afterwards when they somehow don't feel like their *true gender* and feel like they are their original birth gender and sex.
Starmaker: Anecdotal bullshit.
Shadowstalker16: The use of sex reassignment surgery as a method to eliminate gender dysphoria is not even fully understood or supported :
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/ to the extent that the first hospital in the US to do them stopped offering them.
Starmaker: You know Roe is now a big fan of forced pregnancy, right?
edit:
Youth Pastor Watch is back.
1.Why can't they have therapy to transition then? The human evolution and cancer example you cited counts time and natural evolution ability while gender, according to you is social / psychological. So if you can psycho therapy for PTSD, why not gender dysphoria? Both are sourroundings-induced conditions after all.
2.Gender is not assigned. Sex is. Gender has nothing to do with chromosomes. Sex does. Eg, people who are chromosomally female can identify as (straight)male. Gender identity is acquired? So that means a normal child raised in social isolation won't have any gender at all? Answer this please.
3.Says who? All of your claims lack any evidence. I'd like to point that out here. Link some scientific study that says so. And the same for the other claims.
4.That is hermaphrodite / intersex. Not transgender. And women with XY are anecdotal. Those people are the exception, not the rule. And I suppose you know that there is a difference between male and female bodies that aren't genital related or bone structure related, and that is average hormone levels and hormone regulation. The XX girl you described probably has hormone imbalance / improper regulation.
5.Citation needed. You expect every child to draw the same conclusions but what if their prior experiences makes them focus on different aspects of the movie? You're saying that won't happen at all? And if media was so influential, why was the 2 sex, 2 gender norm so normal until the 2000s?
6.It means you're saying 3 individuals will draw the same conclusions from seeing the same movie without even considering learning, prior experiences or attention or interest. Its dumb and its oversimplyfying the human mind to attribute it a level of observable structuredness it simply does not have. Its like saying the 16 personalites test is objectively true.
7.Gender dysphoric people who undergo the operation still feel gender dysphoric after it.
8.By that logic people who don't also fall into anecdotal BS. Why is it anecdotal? If this operation is the godsend, why do so many people commit suicide afterwards?
9.Who is that? I linked an article by McHughes. Even then, why does being wrong in one thing make him wrong in everything?
