It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
LegoDnD: Only if it immediately fallowed an auto-save. And either in response to the game running for long enough that the player might be sleep-deprived
Having done game software testing, I know for a fact that the big AAA studios (or at least the ones that I had worked for) do overnight testing as part of stress testing where the game is deliberately left on overnight. While I had seen crash bugs deliberately left in games, it was never the crashes that occurred because of extended playing. Also some overnight crashes that I personally encountered as a tester were the result of the game pushing the system too hard such that it just overheated.
avatar
Warloch_Ahead: No? Have we run out of topics to discuss that we have to ask if forcing a game to shit itself is in anyway justified?

Though this does remind me of a video of Little Big Planet 3 I think where there's user levels that corrupt your game, or crashes it, or otherwise straight up messes with the experience outside the level. Which makes me the think of the times where my character was straight up unable to do anything in VtMR multiplayer and this persisted across multiple game sessions and the only fix was to make a new character because the jerks running the game room made it so.
avatar
dtgreene: Or VVVVVV. If you have 2.2 or earlier, it's possible to create a level that overwrites your main game save data (for example, by triggering the credits). Of course, one had to take advantage of a bug in the game, one that allows a custom level to inject internal scripting commands, but that bug is one that is actually widely used (and people have documented the commands available).

In 2.3, the code injection bug is still there (probably intentional at this point), but the commands that could cause serious issues were changed to not. (For example, a custom level can still trigger the credits, but doing so will not overwrite the player's main save.)

Worth noting that there was a huge time gap between 2.2 and 2.3, which I think may have been around a decade, and the game's source code was released before 2.3 came out.
avatar
KeoniBoy: An MS-DOS user would "solve" the problem w/ Ctrl-Alt-Del to manually reboot the system. The old ways never go out of fashion.
avatar
dtgreene: Unless the game overwrote the associated interrupt handler, causing ctrl-alt-delete to fail to work. (Or the computer somehow locks up so hard that even ctrl-alt-delete doesn't work.)
Y we have a system thumb drive at hand to reload W10, starting from ground zero(0), then proceed to our BU PC(s) to continue as usual.
avatar
LegoDnD: Only if it immediately fallowed an auto-save. And either in response to the game running for long enough that the player might be sleep-deprived, or a Kojima-style 4th-wall break, like maybe the story takes a Call of Duty-style twist and your character dies in that moment. So when you next boot up, you continue the story with a new character, either previously established or custom-made like the predecessor.
Even the sleep deprived thing is not justified, there are many reasons why you would leave a game running overnight, the biggest being save point starvation.

Two examples of games where I did this was Disgaea where it took too long to finish an Item World level, so I'd just pause the game, shut off the monitor and speakers, and go to bed, then go to work, and come back after work. Another example was the Gold Saucer part of Final Fantasy VII where you were fined GP for using the save point, but I couldn't finish it all in one go. So I'd leave the game running, go to bed, go to college, go to my part-time job, eat dinner, do my homework, then play a couple hours before going back to repeat the cycle.

Although I do recall a few games that would do this kind of hard lock back in the day if you failed the copy protection test from early DRM (though the term wasn't coined yet). Sierra was at least merciful in that they'd just make the game quit (and games like Gold Rush had long load times, 5 minutes to boot up from 3.5" disks). However others were more sadistic for the crime of alleged piracy. That included fat-fingering the "enter in the word from the manual" copy-protection, or for daring to try to play on a backup disk instead of risking the original winding up under the coaster of your chair, and not having the original handy because you put it in a safe place. The game then says "please insert your original disk", so by the time you dig it out a timer has expired and the game assumes you're a pirate.
Also no internet for easy access to cracks back then.
avatar
LegoDnD: Only if it immediately fallowed an auto-save. And either in response to the game running for long enough that the player might be sleep-deprived
avatar
Catventurer: Having done game software testing, I know for a fact that the big AAA studios (or at least the ones that I had worked for) do overnight testing as part of stress testing where the game is deliberately left on overnight. While I had seen crash bugs deliberately left in games, it was never the crashes that occurred because of extended playing. Also some overnight crashes that I personally encountered as a tester were the result of the game pushing the system too hard such that it just overheated.
Reminds me of how one specific version of Super Mario 64 (I think it may be the Wii Virtual Console version) had a bug where, if you'd stay in a particular stage long enough (like multiple days), the platforms would rise because the floating point rounding mode had been set incorrectly. (This particular bug is largely harmless, but it did, I believe, make it possible to beat the game (70 stars) without pressing A.)

avatar
slickrcbd: Even the sleep deprived thing is not justified, there are many reasons why you would leave a game running overnight, the biggest being save point starvation.

Two examples of games where I did this was Disgaea where it took too long to finish an Item World level, so I'd just pause the game, shut off the monitor and speakers, and go to bed, then go to work, and come back after work. Another example was the Gold Saucer part of Final Fantasy VII where you were fined GP for using the save point, but I couldn't finish it all in one go. So I'd leave the game running, go to bed, go to college, go to my part-time job, eat dinner, do my homework, then play a couple hours before going back to repeat the cycle.
I consider this sort of save point starvation without even a quit save to be bad game design that, if it happens in a mandatory section, is enough to ruin a game. Offenders here include Arc the Lad 2 (one area required 2 hours without a save, even though they put in a rest spot in the middle, when I played it) and Final Fantasy 3 (the rather infamous final dungeon).

This sort of issue is also why I never got deep into Lufia 2's Ancient Cave. Fortunately, Lufia: The Legend Returns added a quit save, making its version of the Ancient Cave actually playable. (By the way, in TLR's Ancient Cave, it's fun to start on floor 101 once you get the option; also the bonus for Retry mode carries over, unlike in Lufia 2 (where you might choose to wait for Gift mode).)
Post edited January 19, 2023 by dtgreene
avatar
LegoDnD: Only if it immediately fallowed an auto-save. And either in response to the game running for long enough that the player might be sleep-deprived, or a Kojima-style 4th-wall break, like maybe the story takes a Call of Duty-style twist and your character dies in that moment. So when you next boot up, you continue the story with a new character, either previously established or custom-made like the predecessor.
avatar
slickrcbd: Even the sleep deprived thing is not justified, there are many reasons why you would leave a game running overnight, the biggest being save point starvation.
In addition to what Dtgreene said about that being a problem unto itself, what did you think I meant to do by preceding with "only fallowing an auto-save"? I nipped your problem in the bud from the start.
I think any feature can be done correctly, but some are harder to justify or implement. This reminds me of the Genesis X-Men game that required the player to reset the console to move to the final level, which is an interesting but IMHO poorly executed.
avatar
Catventurer: While I had seen crash bugs deliberately left in games
Any examples you can name? And/or reasons why?
avatar
Catventurer: Having done game software testing, I know for a fact that the big AAA studios (or at least the ones that I had worked for) do overnight testing as part of stress testing where the game is deliberately left on overnight. While I had seen crash bugs deliberately left in games, it was never the crashes that occurred because of extended playing. Also some overnight crashes that I personally encountered as a tester were the result of the game pushing the system too hard such that it just overheated.
avatar
dtgreene: Reminds me of how one specific version of Super Mario 64 (I think it may be the Wii Virtual Console version) had a bug where, if you'd stay in a particular stage long enough (like multiple days), the platforms would rise because the floating point rounding mode had been set incorrectly. (This particular bug is largely harmless, but it did, I believe, make it possible to beat the game (70 stars) without pressing A.)
That sounds like something that was just left in the game as either a "Known Issue" or "As Designed."

One crash bug that I encountered personally though that was just left on the game was a situation where you had to strike a killing blow on the boss at one exact spot while jumping in the air and facing towards the left. Even after we narrowed down the exact circumstances, it wasn't easy to reproduce.
avatar
Catventurer: While I had seen crash bugs deliberately left in games
avatar
Cavalary: Any examples you can name? And/or reasons why?
I don't want to go into exact titles, but the reasons why were always because they were very hard to reproduce. The one that I mentioned in post #23 (trike a killing blow on the boss at one exact spot while jumping in the air and facing towards the left) was originally found by someone else, but they were not recording their playing so nobody could go back and see what they did. I got the fun task of trying to reproduce it, only knowing that it was during a specific encounter. It took me five hours to reproduce the crash and even narrowing down the exact cause (due to what wasn't causing the crash), it was determined to be really hard to reproduce.

The programmers were always concerned that in the process of fixing one bug, they'll introduce either a bunch more or a crash that is more easy to reproduce thus why they'll just leave some bugs in if they're hard to reproduce or considered to be minor.

Some games are total beasts though in that no matter what testing threw at it, the game would just carry on.
avatar
Catventurer:
Ah, so you meant intentionally left as in accidentally there but decided it wasn't worth the trouble to fix, not as in actually introduced on purpose. Thought there were any examples of the latter.
They weren't acceptable when the Two Guys from Andromeda & Roberta Williams were working on games, they certainly aren't now.
avatar
Catventurer:
avatar
Cavalary: Ah, so you meant intentionally left as in accidentally there but decided it wasn't worth the trouble to fix, not as in actually introduced on purpose. Thought there were any examples of the latter.
I don't know of a case where a bug was intentionally introduced and just left in the game. If a programmer is disgruntle enough to do something like that, they're certainly not going to tell anyone in the testing department.
avatar
dtgreene: I was just watching some videos of a troll level in Super Mario Maker 2 that had intentional hardlocks. That is, the game froze, and the player had to quit out of the game. Can you think of a situation where an intentional hardlock like that would be justified?
Hardlocking is like bricking, and shouldn't ever happen.

Though i hear in the trucking industry, they've put in computers that will SHUT OFF THE ENGINE AND LOCK YOU OUT after N hours, ready or not.

I'm sure that won't cause issues ever....
avatar
dtgreene: Reminds me of how one specific version of Super Mario 64 (I think it may be the Wii Virtual Console version) had a bug where, if you'd stay in a particular stage long enough (like multiple days), the platforms would rise because the floating point rounding mode had been set incorrectly. (This particular bug is largely harmless, but it did, I believe, make it possible to beat the game (70 stars) without pressing A.)
avatar
Catventurer: That sounds like something that was just left in the game as either a "Known Issue" or "As Designed."

One crash bug that I encountered personally though that was just left on the game was a situation where you had to strike a killing blow on the boss at one exact spot while jumping in the air and facing towards the left. Even after we narrowed down the exact circumstances, it wasn't easy to reproduce.
The Super Mario 64 issue I'm mentioning is actually an emulation issue. Thing is, Nintendo's emulator is using the wrong floating point rounding mode, and that's enough to allow errors to accumulate over days until the platforms are high enough to allow the A button press to be skipped.

avatar
Catventurer: The programmers were always concerned that in the process of fixing one bug, they'll introduce either a bunch more or a crash that is more easy to reproduce thus why they'll just leave some bugs in if they're hard to reproduce or considered to be minor.
Dragon Quest 3 on the Game Boy Color has a bunch of bugs, including a minor bug where, if a character loses max HP while playing Pachisi, the character's current HP may exceed the max.

For the US release, Dragon Warrior 3, they fixed all the bugs. However, in fixing the minor bug, they introduced a major bug where, if a character loses Strength while playing Pachisi, the character may gain a huge amount of XP, enough to break the game (and, in particular, enough to make it feasible to skip the Magic and Final Keys).

avatar
dtgreene: I was just watching some videos of a troll level in Super Mario Maker 2 that had intentional hardlocks. That is, the game froze, and the player had to quit out of the game. Can you think of a situation where an intentional hardlock like that would be justified?
avatar
rtcvb32: Hardlocking is like bricking, and shouldn't ever happen.

Though i hear in the trucking industry, they've put in computers that will SHUT OFF THE ENGINE AND LOCK YOU OUT after N hours, ready or not.

I'm sure that won't cause issues ever....
Hardlocking isn't as bad as bricking or data loss; if a game hardlocks, you can still start the game up again after (uncleanly) shutting it down and expect it to still work.

There is one browser game I've played where, once you get a certain (rather sad) ending, you can no longer play it in that browser unless you delete local storage from the site; that's closer to bricking the game. (And yes, this is intentional.)

There's also a game (the second Pool of Radiance game, based on 3e rules but not allowing the player to make character build choices) where, if you try to uninstall, it wipes out your hard drive, I believe. (This was fixed in a patch, I believe.)
Post edited January 20, 2023 by dtgreene
avatar
dtgreene: There are other ways to get the same effect without a hardlock:
* Have the game abruptly quit, as though it had crashed. Alternatively, have the game intentionally crash. (This isn't an option on older consoles, and I think recent console policies might disallow this.)
* Have the game suddenly restart, from the title screen. (I believe this is how some older consoles would handle a crash, like in Final Fantasy 2 Advance (IIRC) if you somehow won the first battle (via cheating).)
* Put in an intentional softlock. This could even be something that looks like an intentional hardlock, except that you would be able to access the menu that would allow you to quit the game (though, of course, one could make there be something *different* about the menu, like that Fission Mailed screen I've heard about). In that case, I think a crash would be the more appropriate choice. (Or a kernel panic, if this happens at the kernel level.)
EDIT: SPOILERS AHEAD FOR DDLC AND PONY ISLAND. DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED EITHER OF THESE AND INTEND TO.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
There are other ways, but I could see it as an artistic choice to actually force a hardlock in a game like ...* (moved to the end of the post) that actually break the 4th wall and require you to modify or delete files to complete the content. Your question wasn't "Is it necessary," but "Is it acceptable?" If you're into the 4th-wall-break meta-game style of games, then the answer is "Absolutely."

*Doki Doki Literature Club or Pony Island
Post edited January 20, 2023 by paladin181