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awalterj: ...
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Matewis: Cool, you've rekindled my interest in the game :)
Wait, you still haven't bought it despite all my elaborate propaganda attempts? Maybe I should just take out the Persuadertron instead!
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Matewis: It was the reviews that scared me off at first.
Of course you'll be scared off if you listen to the whiners with their negative waves


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Matewis: As for reaction fire, is it that you can only react after an attack, or is it like the original 1994 XCom where reaction stats duked it out to determine who fired first when you came across an alien, or vice versa?
Your squad members have 2 action points and it costs 1 action point to put them into retaliation mode. So you can e.g. move to a new position and then activate retaliation. It only gets triggered when an enemy attacks you, not when an enemy just pops around the corner. Retaliation isn't a skill in itself, it relies on the "aim" skill of each member and the hit chance is calculated the same as if you had taken a 1 AP shot at an enemy during your turn. 1 AP shots are way less accurate than 2 AP shots and therefor most often miss so I didn't even use retaliation much, only when there was no other choice and I had an enemy turd who kept popping out from behind a corner and kept going into hiding again before it was my turn. Retaliation mode at least gives you a chance to hit that corner hugger while he's out of cover without going after him up close where you might get slaughtered by something else that lurks there but you didn't see it. If you're behind cover, the enemy will miss you very often even if the cover bonus is only 15% for half cover and 30% for full cover. If you're behind hard cover then they can't hit you at all - unless the enemy is in retaliation mode in which case they get to fire back at you when it's you doing the pop around corner move. If you kill the enemy then they naturally can't retaliate but towers and strong enemies usually won't fall after one hit, especially not in hard mode.
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WCardskeeper: Wow, thanks for pointing out Serpents in the Staglands, that one definitely looks interesting! I'll look into it, thank you very much.
My pleasure :) If you do want to check it out I would like to point out one weird thing about the game: at the start when you create your avatar, you can also create additional party members so that you start the game with a full party of size 5. I would strongly recommend against that because that 's one way I unwittingly made the game far too easy after I got over the initial difficulty spike (though there has been a lot of balancing changes since then). Also, there are tons of npcs in the world that you can 'recruit' as you come across them. I stopped playing initially when I realized updates were being rolled out at an incredible pace, but on my next attempt at a playthrough I will only create my main avatar and perhaps one other party member.
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awalterj: Your squad members have 2 action points and it costs 1 action point to put them into retaliation mode. So you can e.g. move to a new position and then activate retaliation. It only gets triggered when an enemy attacks you, not when an enemy just pops around the corner. Retaliation isn't a skill in itself, it relies on the "aim" skill of each member and the hit chance is calculated the same as if you had taken a 1 AP shot at an enemy during your turn. 1 AP shots are way less accurate than 2 AP shots and therefor most often miss so I didn't even use retaliation much, only when there was no other choice and I had an enemy turd who kept popping out from behind a corner and kept going into hiding again before it was my turn. Retaliation mode at least gives you a chance to hit that corner hugger while he's out of cover without going after him up close where you might get slaughtered by something else that lurks there but you didn't see it. If you're behind cover, the enemy will miss you very often even if the cover bonus is only 15% for half cover and 30% for full cover. If you're behind hard cover then they can't hit you at all - unless the enemy is in retaliation mode in which case they get to fire back at you when it's you doing the pop around corner move. If you kill the enemy then they naturally can't retaliate but towers and strong enemies usually won't fall after one hit, especially not in hard mode.
Well that simplifies things a bit at least. Currently, or at least last time I played, I was still busy reaction training my aquanauts in Terror from the Deep, which is quite the ordeal. I have to equip each with dart guns and arrange them in a firing line. Then I have to mind control a strong alien like a lobsterman, equip them with a weapon that's too weak to get through magnetic armour, and park them in front of the firing line. Then it's end-turn end-turn end-turn until all dart guns are empty. Worst of all, you only get like 5 max reaction points at a time doing this :P

Still thanks for the explanation :) The more you talk about the game the more I think I'll enjoy it (on hard). It seems difficulty and balancing can be a bit wonky with these indie titles. Case and point Revenge of the Titans : awesome awesome game, but it becomes nearly impossibly difficult towards the end, with some intermittent easy-ish levels.

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awalterj: Wait, you still haven't bought it despite all my elaborate propaganda attempts? Maybe I should just take out the Persuadertron instead!
Ugh that reminds me, I still have to finish Syndicate Wars. Can't get past the blasted glass space station level :P
Post edited September 11, 2015 by Matewis
For me, one game that I enjoyed enough to spend over 90 hours (according to my save file, not counting reloads (which are common in this game)) on is Elminage Gothic. Take the original Wizardry and give it over 9 times as many floors (I think the total count is 91). Now make it so that the game can challenge even high level parties in its hardest areas. Add some new classes and a nice equipment modification system and you have Elminage Gothic.

If you played and enjoyed the original Wizardry, you will enjoy Elminage Gothic.

If you have played any of the Etrian Odyssey games, you will likely enjoy Elminage Gothic. Just be warned that some of the random encounters can be deadlier than anything in the EO series. (Well, maybe not as bad as an EO2 Mandrake instant-death party-wipe ambush, but then again, what is?)

I wouldn't necessarily call the game Indie, but it is definitely a rather unknown gem that should be looked into.

Also, the game has better balance than most: It seems like all 16 of the classes have some use, and the difficulty does increase as you progress, unlike way too many RPGs (Lords of Xulima, I'm looking at you).
Ziggurat.
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Matewis: ...
It seems difficulty and balancing can be a bit wonky with these indie titles. Case and point Revenge of the Titans : awesome awesome game, but it becomes nearly impossibly difficult towards the end, with some intermittent easy-ish levels.
I never played Revenge of the Titans, it looks like an odd mix between Defense Grid The Awakening, Advance Wars, Z the Game and Pacman or something like that? No idea but it looks cool.

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awalterj: Ugh that reminds me, I still have to finish Syndicate Wars. Can't get past the blasted glass space station level :P
Ha, Syndicate Wars is an old-timer in my backlog, too! I was a big fan of the original Syndicate so I bought a magazine that had the demo for Syndicate Wars on its CD ROM when it was released but the game was hardly playable on our 486 DX2-66. That was the absolute minimal requirement and performance was too laggy to bother getting the full version. And when I got my next PC one year later, a Pentium 200 MMX with 3d card, going back to a non-3Dfx "old" game like Syndicate Wars wasn't my priority. Until I found it here on GOG, but I haven't played it yet which is bery shamefuru.
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awalterj: ...
Lol yes, I also couldn't stand going back to non 3d accelerated graphics after my first 3d card, which was a 8mb Voodoo2 (sounds like you had a voodoo as well), and I also had a pentium 200 at the time, and it too was my first upgrade from from my 486 :) I didn't start of with a 3d card though, but that didn't matter. Going from a laggy 400x300 tomb raider 2 on my 486 to a totally smooth 640x480 tomb raider 2 on my pentium 200 was enough to completely blow my mind
So. Whenever this sort of topic comes up, I never can stop debating what is "unpopular". In the interest of amusing myself somewhat, I've decided to adopt the following methodology: look up how many reviews a game has on Steam.

But before you take a look at the list below (copied the one in OP and added the two games mentioned since the last edit), ask yourself: at what number of reviews would you say a game still counts as "unknown"? Never mind "underrated", as that particular issue cannot be solved by adopting any simple procedure such as this. For me, it's a nice round hundred or below.

Without further ado:

Serpents in the Staglands - 60. Yep, unpopular is right. The audience for hardcore indie RPGs is small. And this is why it took a new funding model to bring back RPGs worth playing. Reading this text legally obliges you to buy ten copies.

Sunless Sea - 1627. No.

Race the Sun - 3670. Hell no.

Her Story - 1105. Nyet. Though I'll admit my surprise at this outcome. But then again, that's why I opted for this approach.

Halfway - 240. Well, compared to the rest of the list, 240 is a pathetic 1.4 times over the limit. Approaching unpopularity? Good job? :)

The Cat Lady - 1887. Nope. Same goes for basically any recent-ish AGS game, I think.

La Mulana - 1202. No, and the only reason it doesn't have ten times as many is its age. This is one of earliest indie hits (2005), usually mentioned in the same breath as Cave Story (2004).

One Finger Death Punch - 8210. Not very far from as many as all the previously mentioned games together.

Elminage Gothic - 93. Congrats, you co-win the thread. I expected even less reviews, but I guess some Skyrim fans found themselves in a strange neck of the woods one drunken evening?

Ziggurat - 1549. For something that's been out under a year if you count early access on Steam. Perma no.
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hyperagathon: So. Whenever this sort of topic comes up, I never can stop debating what is "unpopular". In the interest of amusing myself somewhat, I've decided to adopt the following methodology: look up how many reviews a game has on Steam.

But before you take a look at the list below (copied the one in OP and added the two games mentioned since the last edit), ask yourself: at what number of reviews would you say a game still counts as "unknown"? Never mind "underrated", as that particular issue cannot be solved by adopting any simple procedure such as this. For me, it's a nice round hundred or below.

Without further ado:

Serpents in the Staglands - 60. Yep, unpopular is right. The audience for hardcore indie RPGs is small. And this is why it took a new funding model to bring back RPGs worth playing. Reading this text legally obliges you to buy ten copies.

Sunless Sea - 1627. No.

Race the Sun - 3670. Hell no.

Her Story - 1105. Nyet. Though I'll admit my surprise at this outcome. But then again, that's why I opted for this approach.

Halfway - 240. Well, compared to the rest of the list, 240 is a pathetic 1.4 times over the limit. Approaching unpopularity? Good job? :)

The Cat Lady - 1887. Nope. Same goes for basically any recent-ish AGS game, I think.

La Mulana - 1202. No, and the only reason it doesn't have ten times as many is its age. This is one of earliest indie hits (2005), usually mentioned in the same breath as Cave Story (2004).

One Finger Death Punch - 8210. Not very far from as many as all the previously mentioned games together.

Elminage Gothic - 93. Congrats, you co-win the thread. I expected even less reviews, but I guess some Skyrim fans found themselves in a strange neck of the woods one drunken evening?

Ziggurat - 1549. For something that's been out under a year if you count early access on Steam. Perma no.
I love your analysis and really appreciate posts that show statistics/sales numbers for reference, but I am actually also interested in what people subjectively perceive to be underrated/unpopular games. Sure, like you mentioned, Ziggurat is not an unknown and unpopular game, and I would imagine that GoG doesn't actually pick unknown games that have no chance of getting sold in larger quantities when they are updating their Indie Games section.

Of course, it would be amazing if we could mostly mention games that have unfortunately sold less than 100 copies, but I don't mind how this is going either, so far. I am still getting suggestions for games I haven't even heard of but that apparently sold well enough according to your research.

Honestly, I don't even know what my parameters were for 'unpopular' games. I definitely don't consider Ziggurat to be unpopular and think Elminage Gothic is unpopular, so I think I agree with your view on how many sales constitute a popular vs unpopular game.

I did change the first post to encourage people to check something like Steamspy to recommend really obscure titles. Thanks again!
Post edited September 11, 2015 by WCardskeeper
to see how many games have been sold on Steam, you can go here:

http://steamspy.com/

I know that the numbers of my game are pretty much spot on so that you can most likely trust those stats.
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Matewis: Lol yes, I also couldn't stand going back to non 3d accelerated graphics after my first 3d card, which was a 8mb Voodoo2 (sounds like you had a voodoo as well), and I also had a pentium 200 at the time, and it too was my first upgrade from from my 486 :) I didn't start of with a 3d card though, but that didn't matter. Going from a laggy 400x300 tomb raider 2 on my 486 to a totally smooth 640x480 tomb raider 2 on my pentium 200 was enough to completely blow my mind
Yes, I had a Voodoo card indeed and it was a Guillemot MaxiGamer 3D with 4 MB. There weren't that many cards available during the first wave, most people I knew had a Diamond Monster 3D with 4 MB. It was mind blowing, absolutely. I could play Quake on the 486 with software rendering but only at low resolutions. Once I got the Pentium 200 with voodoo card, the first game I bought was Quake 2. Colored light sources, bilinear filtering, all fluid with high FPS. Heaven! My older brother's Matrox Mystique was insta-outclassed.
Airscape has some high system requirements. Minimum an i5 of 3rd generation CPU. I don't think you'll find many people buying i5s to play tablet look alike games.
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WCardskeeper: I love your analysis and really appreciate posts that show statistics/sales numbers for reference, but I am actually also interested in what people subjectively perceive to be underrated/unpopular games.
That's something that I admit didn't occur to me, perhaps because no one seems to be explaining how they came to their conclusions. Still, fair point.

Sure, like you mentioned, Ziggurat is not an unknown and unpopular game, and I would imagine that GoG doesn't actually pick unknown games that have no chance of getting sold in larger quantities when they are updating their Indie Games section.
I imagine that is one of the bullet points on their "include this or not" list, though occasionally there'll be a game that really makes me wonder what's in their contract with the publisher. Of course, that's just my impression, it means nothing without sales numbers.

Of course, it would be amazing if we could mostly mention games that have unfortunately sold less than 100 copies, but I don't mind how this is going either, so far. I am still getting suggestions for games I haven't even heard of but that apparently sold well enough according to your research.
Well, I certainly hope a hundred reviews or so translates into (at least) thousands of sales, or I'll be very sad for Whalenought Studios (ie, the very nice couple who made Serpent in their apartment on a rather thin Kickstarter budget). It's entirely possible it's too low a number and RPGs, especially the "hardcore" ones, are an exception.

Honestly, I don't even know what my parameters were for 'unpopular' games. I definitely don't consider Ziggurat to be unpopular and think Elminage Gothic is unpopular, so I think I agree with your view on how many sales constitute a popular vs unpopular game.
But there were some games you didn't know about, right? Did those have over 100 (or even 1000, as one could add a zero and the outcomes wouldn't change but for Halfway) reviews?


Edit:
Steamspy seems to confirm my assumptions. Serpent and Elminage are listed at under 5k sales, while Ziggurat is at about 100k and OFDP is over 400k.
Post edited September 11, 2015 by hyperagathon
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WCardskeeper: So yeah, I wanted to ask all of you if there are any Indie games here on GoG that you really liked and that catered to your tastes...
Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Editon is the last indie that really impressed me. I know it enjoyed some notice and acclaim but I'm not really sure how popular it actually is or was.

Moon Hunters and Hyper Light Drifter are two indies that will be released on GoG (when finished). I'm looking forward to both. You can find more info about them below.

http://www.heart-machine.com/

http://www.moonhuntersgame.com/

Of course, it would be amazing if we could mostly mention games that have unfortunately sold less than 100 copies, but I don't mind how this is going either, so far. I am still getting suggestions for games I haven't even heard of but that apparently sold well enough according to your research.
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hyperagathon: Well, I certainly hope a hundred reviews or so translates into (at least) thousands of sales, or I'll be very sad for Whalenought Studios (ie, the very nice couple who made Serpent in their apartment on a rather thin Kickstarter budget). It's entirely possible it's too low a number and RPGs, especially the "hardcore" ones, are an exception.
I am so stupid... Sorry, of course, they sold more than a 100 copies, I would imagine! :D
Post edited September 11, 2015 by WCardskeeper