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dtgreene: I would actually agree that having those conversations makes the game more of a visual novel than an RPG.
I'd prefer a pure RPG, one that doesn't get bogged down in dialog and actually lets me play.
Your view is super narrow. You can't do much role playing if there's no dialog. It's just a combat simulator at that point.
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dtgreene: The CRPG I'm making is intentionally not going to have much in the way of story or dialog.
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SargonAelther: You use that as a flex, but as far as I'm concerned, it's really not, sorry.
What do you mean by this comment?
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dtgreene: I would actually agree that having those conversations makes the game more of a visual novel than an RPG.
I'd prefer a pure RPG, one that doesn't get bogged down in dialog and actually lets me play.
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EverNightX: Your view is super narrow. You can't do much role playing if there's no dialog. It's just a combat simulator at that point.
To me, the "combat simulator" *is* the playing (as well as related things, like character/inventory management and dealing with whatever growth system the characters use.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: To me, the "combat simulator" *is* the playing (as well as related things, like character/inventory management and dealing with whatever growth system the characters use.
Yes, apparently so. It's just a very narrow view of role playing.
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SargonAelther: You use that as a flex, but as far as I'm concerned, it's really not, sorry.
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dtgreene: What do you mean by this comment?
I mean that you seem to describe your game's lack of story or dialogue as a benefit, but to me personally, it is a drawback. I like story-focused games.
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dtgreene: What do you mean by this comment?
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SargonAelther: I mean that you seem to describe your game's lack of story or dialogue as a benefit, but to me personally, it is a drawback. I like story-focused games.
Thing is:
* I'm more interested in the mechanics than the story. (This is also why I'm not using something like RPG Maker or ohrrpgce; I explicitly want to code the mechanics from scratch.)
* A game with a story and plenty of dialog takes more work to make than an otherwise similar game without said story and dialog. As a result, making such a game would require more effort, effort that I'd prefer to put into making the gameplay more interesting.
* I do not have the budget or resources that Larian had for making Baldur's Gate 3, hence expecting a game with tons of dialog, fancy graphics, and still good gameplay is not realistic.

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dtgreene: I would actually agree that having those conversations makes the game more of a visual novel than an RPG.

I'd prefer a pure RPG, one that doesn't get bogged down in dialog and actually lets me play.
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SargonAelther: Visual novels have nothing but conversations. BG3 has story, conversations, combat, levelling, loot, spells, various play styles within that combat, theft, crafting, etc. Look at other CRPGs though. My favourite ones are Fallout 1 and 2. Again, there's levelling, combat, loot, theft AND conversations. Lots of conversations. You can literally defeat the last boss of the game purely by talking. You can go in gunz-blazing, or you can talk. Those are options. having a conversation route does not make a game a visual novel. It makes it a great game with many options.
A pure visual novel has nothing but story/dialog.

What I'm arguing here, however, is that BG3, as described, is an RPG/VN hybrid rather than a pure RPG. There's the VN part, which is the story and dialog, and there's the RPG, which is the other things you mention.

A pure RPG wouldn't have all those conversations, but would have the other aspects that are generally associated with being an RPG. (Well, not all of them; Fallout 1 and 2 don't have spells, and the CRPG I'm making will take the SaGa approach of not having traditional leveling.

Having the conversation route does make the game a VN, though likely a VN hybrid unless the conversation route is the only option.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: ...
I would guess Larian, Obsidian, Bethesda, and OwlCat would all be surprised to learn they make visual novels then.
Anyway it's just semantics. But it does seem silly to say BG3 is not a pure RPG because it has a story and dialog. It's the best implementation of role playing I know of.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by EverNightX
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SargonAelther: It's not about the sex. It's about having a story-rich game, where having a conversation is just as important as having a fight. This is an RPG and the OP is clearly looking for an ARPG, especially since Diablo 2 was mentioned.
Nah. I'm a story guy myself and I very much want crpgs to have meaningful choices and consequences, but this excessive focus on relationships (that is romantic and sexual relationships) with your party members is really misguided imo. A little bit of that is okay, but from what I've read there seems to be way too much of it in BG3.
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morolf: Nah. I'm a story guy myself and I very much want crpgs to have meaningful choices and consequences, but this excessive focus on relationships (that is romantic and sexual relationships) with your party members is really misguided imo. A little bit of that is okay, but from what I've read there seems to be way too much of it in BG3.
I think the issue BG3 has is the sexual stuff can happen too early in the game and too easily so it doesn't feel earned. If it happened only in act 3 and only after at least a decent amount of effort it might seem more appropriate.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by EverNightX
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EverNightX: I think the issue BG3 has is the sexual stuff can happen too early in the game and too easily so it doesn't feel earned. If it happened only in act 3 and only after at least a decent amount of effort it might seem more appropriate.
What I find ridiculous is that ALL of your party members seem to be hitting on your character (and they're also all bisexual...or pansexual?). That wasn't the case in older games with romances like Baldur's Gate 2, Dragon age: Origins or Knights of the old republic. BG3's approach just seems way too over the top in this regard, even immersion-killing. Plus, from some of the excerpts I've seen the writing seems to be more explicit, even vulgar than in those older titles.
Granted, I haven't yet played BG3 myself (will eventually, when it's been discounted and is fully patched), so these are just impressions based on reviews and comment threads I've read.
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morolf: What I find ridiculous is that ALL of your party members seem to be hitting on your character (and they're also all bisexual...or pansexual?).
That's not my style either. I think the origin characters should be a specific type of character and not be malleable. They also should not all like you. But they made the decision to let players *be* origin characters and to do that + still let players do what they want you end up with things like that. Those 2 things are kind of at odds and I would not have made that choice but I understand the argument for it from a freedom of choice perspective.

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morolf: from some of the excerpts I've seen the writing seems to be more explicit, even vulgar than in those older titles.
I've probably only seen 1/3 of the game but I can't say I've seen vulgar writing so far.
Although I also don't use Karlach and I do think she curses a lot.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by EverNightX
I haven't bought it yet. Probably won't have time for it this year. BG1 and 2 are some of my all-time favorites, and I finished them many times. Did a solo playthrough at some point too. I haven't followed the BG3 hype very closely, but I'll play it eventually with an open mind. This seems to be game of the century, but it's also a bit weird to me how most of the articles I see about the game are about the romance stuff. Is it that big of a focus? I mainly get my gaming news from Kotaku.

I never got past the first few hours of the D: OS games. They just kicked my ass completely. Do you have to be a master tactician in BG3, or can you just start a new game and get right into the goblin slaying?

I played Diablo 4 at launch and got really bored toward the end of act 2 already. Maybe I just got too old and pissed off? Had way more fun when playing D2 Resurrected with a friend recently.
Some sexual facts from my experience:

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS*** (nothing serious though, trust me)

Yes, everyone in your camp is bisexual or ALL sexual or call it whatever you like.

I initiated the flirt / romance with Shadowheart from the very beginning (not my type really, but she was the best the game could offer me, she is pretty though).

Shadowheart - received 1 kiss only during the cutscene in Act 1 (probably a bug, because I got the very same cutscene for a second time), and an option to kiss her at the end of Act 2, anything else is left for Act 3 (so, it's hard earned according to some, hooray)

Lae'zel - was ready to have sex early in Act 1, no feelings stated though (even with normal attitude, devs says it was a bug and should be patched out), no dissaproval if turned down, she is a professional

Karlach (have to be good) - was ready to initiate romance during the "celebration night" in Act 1, no sex though due to *circumstances*, but feelings were at the ready (I guess it can be counted as hard earned as well), no dissaproval if turned down in a friendly way, she is a good girl
CORRECTION:
Karlach (have to be good) - never hits on your character unless you choose to flirt with her, nice girl

Astarion - wants to have sex on a second night in Act 1, no feelings though; hits hard during the "celebration night" in Act 1, dissaproves if turned down, no more issues with him after that point (design flaw, I never flirted with the guy)

Gale - wants to have sex during the "celebration night" in Act 1, dissaproves if turned down; hits even harder later in Act 1 (or Act 2 if you sleep less), dissaproves yet again, no more issues with him after that point (design flaw, I never flirted with the guy)

Wyll - hinting at your during the "celebration night" in Act 1, no dissaproval if turned down in a friendly way, good guy, however during the Act 2 he was hitting on Lae'zel and then Shadowheart (my beloved) right in front of my eyes, and during one night sequence he offered me to dance, this was insane, he didn't dissaprove when I turned him down but it was very dramatic (design flaw, I never flirted with the guy)

Halsin (have to be good) - never hits on your character unless you choose to flirt with him, nice guy

Minthara (have to be evil) - forces you to have sex with her during the "celebration night" in Act 1, no feelings stated, feelings are for Act 3

In conclusion: I felt mistreated by Wyll (1 attempt), Astarion (2 attempts) and especially by Gale (2 attempts) for their open desire to sleep with me. Lae'zel offer you to bed her but she is fine with rejection, Karlach only hints about it, Shadowheart probably would never even do anything unless you start it first, Minthara is a Drow commander and I can't blame her for her tyrannical approach.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by Cadaver747
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Random_Coffee: ... but it's also a bit weird to me how most of the articles I see about the game are about the romance stuff. Is it that big of a focus?
Nothing serious, you can ignore it. But 3 guys and 1 girl are going to hit on you unless they hate your guts (by having them at your party and choosing decisions opposite to their liking).
In my opinion romances in Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age: Origins are much better. But BG3 romances are much better than in BG2, that's for certain ;)

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Random_Coffee: Do you have to be a master tactician in BG3, or can you just start a new game and get right into the goblin slaying?
The game is very easy for me on normal difficulty. And I'm not a very good player at such games. Unless you decide to initiate an open attack on all goblins right in front of Ogre guard you should be fine.
Post edited September 19, 2023 by Cadaver747
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Random_Coffee: I played Diablo 4 at launch and got really bored toward the end of act 2 already. Maybe I just got too old and pissed off? Had way more fun when playing D2 Resurrected with a friend recently.
I finished Diablo 4's campaign (first Diablo game I've ever finished) and thought it was okay. But some design choices are truly baffling...you essentially have to rush through the main quest, doing few to none of the side quests, otherwise you'll be massively overpowered by the end of the campaign and it will be just boring. Late game content isn't that captivating either, only some of it (the nightmare dungeons) is somewhat challenging, but even that eventually gets very repetitive.

SPOILERS


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Cadaver747: In conclusion: I felt mistreated by Wyll (1 attempt), Astarion (2 attempts) and especially by Gale (2 attempts) for their open desire to sleep with me. Lae'zel offer you to bed her but she is fine with rejection, Karlach only hints about it, Shadowheart probably would never even do anything unless you start it first, Minthara is a Drow commander and I can't blame her for her tyrannical approach.
So three party members are serially molesting you, and a Drow dominatrix just outright rapes you. I think I prefer Jaheira, Viconia and Anomen from BG2 over that (not Aerie though, couldn't stomach her childish whining).
Post edited September 19, 2023 by morolf
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dtgreene: ...
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EverNightX: I would guess Larian, Obsidian, Bethesda, and OwlCat would all be surprised to learn they make visual novels then.
Anyway it's just semantics. But it does seem silly to say BG3 is not a pure RPG because it has a story and dialog. It's the best implementation of role playing I know of.
It's not a pure RPG because it contains elements that I consider to be the defining characteristic of another genre.

This statement says nothing about the quality of the RPG side of things.