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General discussionI boycott GOG ... well because of (lost) principles(316 posts)(316 posts)
(316 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 03, 2015
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real.geizterfahr: (No shit! Courts saw Sofortüberweisung as a proof that certain websites were built for German customers).
Which is, essentially, true.
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Avogadro6: On the contrary, it sounds like I'm missing all the fun. :(
Not much fun to be had here, except you are a lawyer and love your job with a passion :-)
Post edited October 03, 2015 by toxicTom
Posted October 03, 2015
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john_hatcher: Let me rephrase my question.

When will you stop buying from GOG? When they start to use drm? When they charge you 10 times the price let's russians have to pay? When they block a game in your country? What will it be?
Like any other shop : I'll stop buying here when they'll stop
- selling interesting games
- at a price I find fair
- with an aceptable level of service.

I came here because I could find old games (more specifically, because someone told me they had Torment), and I staid because most games they add are interesting, and because they're easy to install abd they work. All the "principles" (DRM free, "fair price package", etc...) are simply an happy accident where I'm concerned, not the reason I stay.
I'm more willing to pay full day-one price here because of them, sure, but I would still be a customer without them.
Post edited October 03, 2015 by Kardwill
Posted October 04, 2015
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Avogadro6: ^Si, infatti, stavo proprio pensando la stessa cosa.
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Vainamoinen: Translation of that exchange: "TheKraut" is getting owned by having the actual legal situation explained to him. There's nothing to see here. :)
Nope I'm not getting owned because what I wrote is that GOG is not affected by the german laws which is still true you can still ask official sources about it so I can again prove that I'am right. The only thing that could happen to GOG would be that the storesite could get indexed which never happend before to a store (example Steam) and what would only affect sites like Google.de (Google.com doesn't use the index filter list). But it is funny that people still try to argue against official sources ^^

@E_A
Hast Du den Fall bzw. das Urteil gelesen? Nein wohl eher nicht!

@Piranjade
Ich glaube ich brauche keine rechtliche Belehrung, guck was ich in den vorherigen Posts geschrieben habe und frag wie gesagt bei offiziellen Stellen nach. Ich kann meine Aussagen immer belegen ;)
Machen wir es aber mal anders und denken uns das GOG an deutsche Gesetze gebunden ist, dann verstoßen sie leider gegen einige Gesetze und sollten dies schleunigst beheben.

@toxicTom
Na dann guck doch mal was ich geschrieben habe, wird GOG durch ein deutsches Gesetz berührt? Nein! Eine Indizierung wirkt sich auf deutsche Suchmaschinen (Google.de als Beispiel aber ein umstellen auf .com hebelt dies eh aus) aus, ist aber KEIN Gesetz!

Ist mir aber auch zu dumm mich hier mit Pseudo-Juristen im Internet rum zustreiten, offizielle Quellen für meine Aussagen gibt es genug von daher ist das Thema für mich durch.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 04, 2015
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john_hatcher: Let me rephrase my question.

When will you stop buying from GOG? When they start to use drm? When they charge you 10 times the price let's russians have to pay? When they block a game in your country? What will it be?
When they go on like now: Not DRM-free games at all, region locks and bitching for publishers. I'm here for idealistic view and way. Also for the games but mostly because GOG stood for principles. But these are going down because more people and even participants here in the thread have no further interest on principles and are only interested in more actual games from all publishers, no matter of the costs. So this is my message:

You people here mutate GOG to another Steam with your wishes! Do you have even an idea what idealism means? Principles are not bad and just broke with them to get more content is the wrong way. You may have no problem with DRM and more boundaries. That's fine for you, but don't therefore force others accepting this also! And with your behaviour this is exactly the way to go.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by throgh
Posted October 04, 2015
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john_hatcher:
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throgh: Do have even an idea what idealism means?
The Germans thought they knew what it meant back in the 30s and 40s and because of that you can't buy Wolfenstein games there. :P
Posted October 04, 2015
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throgh: Do have even an idea what idealism means?
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tinyE: The Germans thought they knew what it meant back in the 30s and 40s and because of that you can't buy Wolfenstein games there. :P
Oh nice one to compare. So you think insulting somebody way back with a very dark past is helpful? Go on with that so this only demonstrates what kind of spirit you have. :-)

As sidenote: I have already discussed with people and tried to get behind their fascistic thoughts, unmasking them as agitators and the mechanics behind. What have you done making the world a better place for everybody? That is the idealism what I'm talking about. But as I've said: Insulting seems to be the only answer left when the sentence "I have no problem with" left its effects, right?
Post edited October 04, 2015 by throgh
Posted October 04, 2015
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tinyE: The Germans thought they knew what it meant back in the 30s and 40s and because of that you can't buy Wolfenstein games there. :P
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throgh: Oh nice one to compare. So you think insulting somebody way back with a very dark past is helpful? Go on with that so this only demonstrates what kind of spirit you have. :-)
It was a joke.

Lighten up.
Posted October 04, 2015
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throgh: Oh nice one to compare. So you think insulting somebody way back with a very dark past is helpful? Go on with that so this only demonstrates what kind of spirit you have. :-)
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tinyE: It was a joke.

Lighten up.
Some jokes are better than others. :-) You see: I'm german and I don't want to be blamed for the past of my ancestors - I don't really see me as "german" just as a human being at all. In fact I'm ashamed about that and what was done. But the mechanics haven't lost their effect. Today they just use another refinement and they are not bound to local states. :-( The best we can do preventing to have that happen again is to recognize the history and learn from that, also having in mind that rasicm for example is part of our global society and must be fought whenever found. That has nothing to do with the games here or the discussion at all. But also the companies just uses us and therefore it is really important knowing when you are a customer or nothing more than a consument for their planned obsolescence. DRM is nothing more than a tool for that. That is part of the principles and the idealism I'm talking about.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by throgh
Posted October 04, 2015
Nope I'm not getting owned because what I wrote is that GOG is not affected by the german laws which is still true you can still ask official sources about it so I can again prove that I'am right ... But it is funny that people still try to argue against official sources
Well except that you didn't provide any sources and seem to have no clue what you are talking about.
Posted October 04, 2015

Nope I'm not getting owned because what I wrote is that GOG is not affected by the german laws which is still true you can still ask official sources about it so I can again prove that I'am right ... But it is funny that people still try to argue against official sources
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E_A: Well except that you didn't provide any sources and seem to have no clue what you are talking about.
I did several sides ago I also did it already here in the german subforum. The thread should still be there.

Ich zitere dir aber auch gerne mal aus dem Reddit Fall

"Sitzt ein Unternehmen im Ausland, sind der deutschen Prüfstelle allerdings weitgehend die Hände gebunden: Petra Meier sagt, Reddit könne wie jeder ausländische Inhalteanbieter selbst entscheiden, wie es auf die Benachrichtigung aus Deutschland reagiert. Die neue Sperre für deutsche IP-Adressen muss demnach also Reddit selbst umgesetzt haben, sie kann schon aus rechtlichen Gründen nicht von einer deutschen Behörde verordnet worden sein. "

*Petra Meier = Stellvertretende Vorsitzende der BPjM

Die Quelle ist der Spiegel, da es aber dort auch eine Verlinkung/Erwähnung der gesperrten Seite gibt bzw. deren Namen dort erwähnt wird und es sich bei der Seite um eine Seite mit richtigen Morden etc. handelt verlinke ich nicht direkt kann sie dir aber gerne zukommen lassen.
Hier noch einmal für dich was den JMStV und GOG betrifft.

Welche Handlungsmöglichkeiten hat die KJM gegenüber ausländischen Anbietern?

Die Handlungs­möglich­keiten der KJM sind bei ausländischen Angeboten - die über den Geltungs­bereich des Jugendmedienschutz-Staatvertrages (JMStV) hinausgehen - begrenzt. Hinweise auf Verstöße im Ausland werden - so weit möglich – an dortige Beschwerde­stellen mit der Bitte weitergeleitet, gegen die Verstöße vorzugehen. Darüber hinaus versucht die bei der KJM organisatorisch angebundene Stelle jugend­schutz.net über die jeweiligen Host-Provider eine Änderung des Angebots zu erreichen.

Auch mittels Indizierungen kann gegen Inhalte von Anbietern mit Sitz im Ausland vorgegangen werden. Sie fallen in das Aufgabengebiet der BPjM. Die KJM ist in diesem Zusammenhang einerseits für die Abgabe von Stellungnahmen zu Indizierungsanträgen von Telemedien zuständig und kann andererseits auch selbst Indizierungsanträge stellen....
http://www.kjm-online.de/service/fragen-antworten.html

*Die KJM gilt nach Ansicht einiger Anwälte als Mischbehörde was aber nichts zur Sache tut.

Daneben habe ich mehrfach davor Quellen gepostet unter anderem auch das JuSchG was ja hier auch angesprochen wurde, was aber sowieso für GOG nicht gilt!

Sorry to say so but you should inform yourself better BEFORE you are trying to argue with me :)
Post edited October 04, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 04, 2015
You confuse applicability of German law and the ability to enforce rulings.

-German law applies to GoG as long as they deliver to German costumers.
-However German authorities are obviously unable to enforce their laws in Poland as long as Poland does not cooperate.

This fact does not change the fact that they are acting illegally nor would GoG executives be protected when travelling to Germany to (for example) present their games at Gamescom).

So this:

GOG or Steam are not affected by this because the JMStV (for download titles) and the JuSchG (for retail versions) only count inside Germany and for stores placed in Germany.
is demonstrably false. See §9 StGB. Your details regarding classifications are largely correct but irrelevant to the question if GoG is breaking German laws by delivering games without age verification.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by E_A
Posted October 04, 2015
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tinyE: The Germans thought they knew what it meant back in the 30s and 40s and because of that you can't buy Wolfenstein games there. :P
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throgh: What have you done making the world a better place for everybody?
I pee in the shower to save water.
Posted October 04, 2015
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E_A: You confuse applicability of German law and the ability to enforce rulings.

-German law applies to GoG as long as they deliver to German costumers.
-However German authorities are obviously unable to enforce their laws in Poland as long as Poland does not cooperate.

This fact does not change the fact that they are acting illegally nor would GoG executives be protected when travelling to Germany to (for example) present their games at Gamescom).

So this:

GOG or Steam are not affected by this because the JMStV (for download titles) and the JuSchG (for retail versions) only count inside Germany and for stores placed in Germany.
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E_A: is demonstrably false. See §9 StGB. Your details regarding classifications are largely correct but irrelevant to the question if GoG is breaking German laws by delivering games without age verification.
See I already posted my sources which are official ones and explained this several times. It won't change your point of view and you will definitely not changing my point view. Besides that arguing with a anonymous person on the internet about what is right and what not is stupid and I normally don't do this. So this conversation about this matter ends at this point for me even if we still could argue about it.

I posted my sources and opinion and so did you now people can decide who is right and who is not.
Post edited October 04, 2015 by DanTheKraut
Posted October 04, 2015
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DanTheKraut: See I already posted my sources which are official ones and explained this several times. It won't change your point of view and you will definitely not changing my point view. Besides that arguing with a anonymous person on the internet about what is right and what not is stupid and I normally don't do this. So this conversation about this matter ends at this point for me even if we still could argue about it.

I posted my sources and opinion and so did you now people can decide who is right and who is not.
Fair enough. From my point of view: Your sources are official but do not state what you think they do. I posted the applicable law (StGB - Uniquitätsprinzip) while you provided no proof in regards to your claim of an inapplicability of the JMStV. So let's leave it to the readers to judge whose sources they consider more reliable.
Posted October 04, 2015
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E_A: while you provided no proof in regards to your claim of an inapplicability of the JMStV.
Regarding this I already posted but maybe you missed it (Post Nr. 175)
"Die Handlungs­möglich­keiten der KJM sind bei ausländischen Angeboten - die über den Geltungs­bereich des Jugendmedienschutz-Staatvertrages (JMStV) hinausgehen - begrenzt."

"The KJM has only limited scope for action concerning content based outside of Germany and going beyond the scope of the Interstate Treaty on the Protection of Minors in the Media (JMStV). Any information on breaches in content hosted outside of Germany is forwarded to the respective authority in charge of complaints for further action. In addition, jugendschutz.net which is linked to the KJM in its organisation tries to reach an alteration of the content with the respective host provider."
Post edited October 04, 2015 by DanTheKraut
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionI boycott GOG ... well because of (lost) principles(316 posts)(316 posts)
(316 posts)