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General discussionHow long until Poland goes down the drain?(278 posts)(278 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 01, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Imho the currently reestablished nationalism nearly everywhere in the western world is a sign, that globalisation still doesn't work because the cultures and conditions on this planet are way too different for this. It's only logical that local problems have priority, Switzerland is run by this for ages and it's still the way to go until humanity is ready for a united planet, which it certainly isn't and probably won't be for quite a while.
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Trilarion: Sounds about right although I'm not very optimistic about (populistic) nationalism as the way to go. In my eyes it's a dead end and a dangerous path at the same time. It cannot be the answer to globalization and I hope I can avoid it. I really would not like to live in a closed, intolerant, one-sided society like [choose one of: Hungary, Turkey, Russia, ...].

I feel like actually I'm at home a bit everywhere although more here of course. It doesn't mean I don't have values. But I feel to connected to all people around the world who share my values, whereever they are. That's the crucial point. And I feel kind of opposed to all people who do not share these value, also when living where I live. It doesn't mean I agree to endless migration, but I don't want to live in a country that does not allow any migration at all. There must exist a good middle ground to react to globalization and not rampant nationalism like we see now.
Right, a way in the middle would be ideal, but hard-liners get more voters and it's easier to say "open the gates" or "close the gates" and in our current political system, most decisions are made like that.
It's not a nice thing, but invisible walls are protecting us from more than you can imagine.

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Trilarion: The funny thing is that nationalism runs extremely high in many countries that have a very low amount of people with migration background like Poland. It's a miracle to me what the voters in Poland are actually fearing now, with their low amount of immigrants? Either it is a very abstract fear or a lot of (unfounded - it's always unfounded) nationalistic pride. But it's not true. Russians aren't better than Poles who aren't better than French who aren't better than Americans or Chinese or Japanese who aren't better than anyone else.
In order to establish a united planet, we'd have to get rid of every fascist aspect of current cultures and ironically especcially the radical "left" is preventing this thanks to media manipulations and a lack of education just as their similar "right" wing. Both are just two sides of the same coin and this coin isn't worth very much in the rating system of our rulers but very convenient if you got enough of those.
Everything that rates a human's worth by stuff like where he comes from, where he's living, sex, sexual orientation, etc... would have to be completely removed without trying to implement some counter bullshit that only makes the problem worse, especcially in the abrahamitic religions and the laws of many countries - unfortunately people are not willing to do this because "tradition". I'm not even able to get many people to read the Quran and think about how much fascism is part of it and to which problems it does lead although it's so extremely obvious even without looking at actual events.

The whole principle of "we are better then them" would have to be removed from all human culture and humans aren't even able to do this with their own f***ing species, don't let me get me started with how they are handling this with other species, it's really sad.

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Trilarion: Well, let's see where this will lead to, but let's not say I did not warn before the uprising nationalism. The day a nationalistic party takes over in Germany will be the day I emigrate to Canada and seek asylum there.
I'd probably to the same, although I'm still trying to decide between Canada and Wales.
I have no future in Germany as it is now anyway as it seems, it's just too expensive to start an artisan business here.
Post edited December 01, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted December 01, 2015
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Emob78: You talk about national sovereignty as if it was a bad thing.

So let me ask you a question. Do you like to see greedy American culture creeping into every nook and cranny on the planet? Yeah, didn't think so. So enjoy your high walls and good German beer and learn to appreciate those invisible lines drawn on the map.
You don't know how greedy I am. Maybe I would fit in quite nicely. But at least you are lucky with the size of your country. You can drive for five hours straight and not having crossed three other countries in the mean time. That actually sucks (especially for Luxemburgians but not only for them...).

But what I really wanted to say is that there must be a middle ground. You can be global and local at the same time. Even in the US there is federalism. Each state can be a bit different while at the same time people can move freely and search for work freely. Nationalistic pride in a federal state in the US is not comparable to anything you see now in Europe for example. When Poles say "Poland for the Poles" they actually mean it. This is not a joke.

How could a middle ground look like: limited but existing migration, open, liberal societies, self-determination on a local level but without isolation and wall building, free moving and searching for work within some (quite large) boundaries. This would be much better (in my eyes) than Poland for the Poles, Germany for the Germans, France for the French, and so on.
Posted December 01, 2015
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Trilarion: snip

Well, let's see where this will lead to, but let's not say I did not warn before the uprising nationalism. ... snip
It's not to rub your face in it, but you actually didn't :)

Your timing was off by around 3 years in fact. PiS victory in elections is not the beginning of anything much. At least in the sociopolitical aspects that you clearly are concerned with and mentioning. Those social changes towards more nationalism, xenophobia, etc... are a cause of PiS victory, not its consequence. Of course such things reinforce each other though.

If you want to know one thing that I noticed here in Wroclaw that was not common even 6 months ago. There is now more defacing of posters and shops if they are somewhat sexually explicit.
Posted December 01, 2015
3 hours
Posted December 01, 2015
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Klumpen0815: ...The whole principle of "we are better then them" would have to be removed from all human culture and humans aren't even able to do this with their own f***ing species, don't let me get me started with how they are handling this with other species, it's really sad. ...
The sadest thing about it is in my eyes that intellectually it is a no-brainer. "We are better then them" can only be true at most for one subpopulation and then only under very mysterious circumstances (somehow they must be the chosen ones). So almost everyone should be capable of seeing the wrongness of it easily but still many act like it would be true, like their genes, nationality, religion entitles them to something better. It doesn't mean you should give up all defenses and let everyone in or so, but it means whenever people argue that a society should stay pure because of genes, immigration should be completely banished because of nationality, there are others which are completely different because of religion - it's most probably a very wide exageration or a lie.
Post edited December 01, 2015 by Trilarion
Posted December 01, 2015
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toxicTom: While I don't agree with the OP, I don't think the "low rated" is deserved. Why are people so eager to click (-) lately?!
Feel free to vote for changing this totalitarian system, GOG has established here.
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/change_lowhighrated_forum_post_rating
Posted December 15, 2015
"...Mr. Kaczynski described them as traitors. “In Poland, there is a horrible tradition of national treason, a habit of informing on Poland to foreign bodies,” Mr. Kaczynski said. “And that’s what it is. As if it’s in their genes, in the genes of Poles of the worst sort.”"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/15/world/europe/poland-law-and-justice-party-jaroslaw-kaczynski.html

Didn't know the leader of law (unless the constitutional court decides against them) and order (a very specific order) is also a molecular biologist.
Post edited December 15, 2015 by Trilarion
Posted December 18, 2015
Seems like Lech Walesa wants to make a comebacl on the political scene:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/233206,Walesa-mulls-comeback-amid-political-crisis-in-Poland

And apparently, he warned yesterday on televison that there was a risk of civil war (no English article ATM):
http://www.7sur7.be/7s7/fr/1505/Monde/article/detail/2560769/2015/12/18/Risque-de-guerre-civile-en-Pologne.dhtml

So, is it some total bullshit like the French Prime Minister who warned about a civil war if the Front National had won the regional elections or can we expect GOG to close its services due to "major problems"?
Posted December 18, 2015
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catpower1980: snip
Immediate assumption that he is referring to the kind of status similar to the historical stan wojenny (let's say martial law condition), with high tension and tempers running high, not to military operations by two opposing factions.

I mean, you guys realize this is the same kind of media treatment that for example Orban got from years back? Much ink was spilled but I certainly didn't notice the apocalypse arriving... well, to Hungary... maybe Syria counts...

I'm not trying to minimize the problems that are real and caused / resulted from the right winning power in Europe, BUT the press is typically liberal and is obviously overreacting to the shifts in sociopolitical trends.

One could wonder if there is a grain of truth to the affirmations that for some folks, (read for many journalists) democratic shifts in power should be subverted rather than respected. Because what the hoi poloi prefers shouldn't count. And no wonder then that specific politicians are able to ride that wave to more power. Which I guess goes rather to Trilarion: You see how despite not being a biologist, Kaczynski is quite an efficient politician? It's all rhetoric dude... your trying to mock / analyze it at a superficial level is either funny or sad, not sure which...

In other words, it would be great if the press stopped making tempests in a teapot, offering alarmist sensationalism, and therefore solidifying the power of PiS which I would love to see turned around in the near future. By which I mean in say 5 years.

Less than that is unrealisitic given the opposition being so fragmented, and PO mainly discredited. Ultimately it will depend how well the economy goes and if the country continues to modernize. If things worsen, PiS will suffer, no matter the rhetoric. A lot of its votes came from regular "time for the other guys" less mature voters, not from hardcore ideologues. Ironically I expect PiS will reap a lot of what PO sowed behind the scenes, and get the glory for improvements it had nothing to do with. Unfortunate, but that's the name of the game.

Kind of convenient if the press prefers to antagonize and sensationalize rather than inform end empower. Still, I rather believe the "liberal elites" are that myopic. Collusion is just so much more unlikely given how much they clearly hate and are alarmed at what happened.
Posted December 18, 2015
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catpower1980: snip
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Brasas: I mean, you guys realize this is the same kind of media treatment that for example Orban got from years back? Much ink was spilled but I certainly didn't notice the apocalypse arriving... well, to Hungary... maybe Syria counts...

In other words, it would be great if the press stopped making tempests in a teapot,
That's why I wanted some Polish point of view as I exactly thought it was just some clickbait (well, more like viewbait as it was on TV) stuff and as medias in West Europa are totally biased.... Thanks for your response!
Posted December 18, 2015
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Brasas: ... I mean, you guys realize this is the same kind of media treatment that for example Orban got from years back? Much ink was spilled but I certainly didn't notice the apocalypse arriving... well, to Hungary... maybe Syria counts... ...
Just a small comment: Maybe we should not set the bar so high. Even without the apocalypse arriving, conditions can quite bad.

Just go to the central place of Budapest and demand freedom of press and that Roma should be treated nicely and that Orban is a kind of dictator. Then repeat the same procedure in the central place in Warsaw with maybe different names and if you survive both without needing to visit a hospital, then I will refrain from commenting further (unless they do something seriously bad or someone dies or whatever).
Posted December 18, 2015
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catpower1980: snip
Well, the intricacies of this whole constitutional court situation are not something I am very keen to explore. So don't take me on faith... what I do know is that the actions of PiS now can be justified by previous actions of PO right before losing the elections. I don't have enough info to decide which of them started really going off track.

What is interesting to me, is that when for example, the courts in Germany disagreed with Merkel over EU subsidies and such, no one even dreamed of making the kind of extrapolations that get thrown around when political crises / power shifts happen in Eastern Europe. Everyone understood the power plays are happening and will continue in front and behind the scenes. It's all basic politicking...

Also interesting to me, sadly, that I can live and tolerate with the stupidity the left does when in power, as well with the stupidity the right does when in power. But some people clearly thought it was impossible for the right to ever get in power again or something... hence the kind of emotional reaction seen in Europe - and in the US for that matter.

Consider the French elections for example. Did you see anyone outside of FN themselves (duhm, they would of course), seriously make the point that the type of collusion between the other two parties, to exclude the FN from higher power, is hugely problematic? Because it is. I mean has anything like that ever happened in any of the French republiques? I saw a lot of press with rhetoric akin to "we are holding so far boys, hold on till the tide turns" myopically unaware, or completely downplaying, that the vote count for FN went up between the first and second round, and that this type of politicking is only likely to reinforce the underdog status and sympathy for the FN in the broad public - and therefore lead to a larger shift further on.

It's just so freaking stupid. Personally speaking I'd rather accept a bit of bitterness now in my soup, in order to not have to eat a dish full of rotten shit later. Granted, one can never judge with absolute certainly of when something will rot, and the level of bitterness accepted is so subjective...

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Trilarion: Just a small comment: Maybe we should not set the bar so high. Even without the apocalypse arriving, conditions can quite bad.

Just go to the central place of Budapest and demand freedom of press and that Roma should be treated nicely and that Orban is a kind of dictator. Then repeat the same procedure in the central place in Warsaw with maybe different names and if you survive both without needing to visit a hospital, then I will refrain from commenting further (unless they do something seriously bad or someone dies or whatever).
Your fundamental point is valid. I used rhetoric to make the point that YOU are the one with the apocalyptic glasses.

And your example is perfect to kind of prove me right. Do you really think this is true? I could do this and more in Poland with no issue, either in Warsaw or any other major city. Hungary I can't comment to, but I seriously doubt it's Putin's Russia. And even there it takes time before they decide to beat you up or murder you.

You're overreacting basically. Fear is the mindkiller.

PS: Don't stop commenting though. That's not my intent at all... and by the way, there's going to be a number of so called pro democracy demonstrations soon organized all over Poland. In actuality they will be anti PiS of course. I expect they will not be confronted violently at all. How many people show up is a different story. I hope quite a lot.
Post edited December 18, 2015 by Brasas
Posted December 18, 2015
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catpower1980: That's why I wanted some Polish point of view as I exactly thought it was just some clickbait (well, more like viewbait as it was on TV) stuff and as medias in West Europa are totally biased.... Thanks for your response!
Let me assure you, the situation is dire, and it's no overreaction on anyone's part. The cornerstones of democracy are being dissmantled right now, every day. The president and the goverment have already broken the constitution multiple times, the Constitutional Tribunal's sentences are being ignored and it's about to be transformed into a puppet institution with unlawful acts that break the constitution. And no, the actions of the new goverment can NOT be justified by the mistakes made by the previous parliment. They messed up, that's true enough. But that in no way, NO WAY, justifies defying and contesting the rulings of the Tribunal, which the current goverment and the president are doing, in clear violation of the constituion. Enyone who claims otherwise has no understanding of the situation, or is trying to manipulate facts. PiS is using this as an excuse to dismantle the constitutional foundations of our democracy, since they do not have the majority required to outright alter the constitution.

New laws that threaten the freedom of media have already been announced proudly. And now during the night the Military Police with people from the MInistry of Defence raided a NATO facility to forcibly remove officials with new goverments supporters, without going through proper channels and informing our NATO allies.

Do not listen to people who tell you nothing out of the ordinary is going on, and it's just a few people and supporters of the previous goverment who are overreacting. Very bad things are happening that threaten the security of the country as well as civil liberties and the foundations of democracy. You don't need some "apocalypse scenarios" and blood running in the streets for that. This is a creeping coup d'etat, there is no mistake about it.
Post edited December 18, 2015 by Breja
Posted December 18, 2015
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catpower1980: That's why I wanted some Polish point of view as I exactly thought it was just some clickbait (well, more like viewbait as it was on TV) stuff and as medias in West Europa are totally biased.... Thanks for your response!
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Breja: Let me assure you, the situation is dire, and it's no overreaction on anyone's part. The cornerstones of democracy are being dissmantled right now, every day. The president and the goverment have already broken the constitution multiple times, the Constitutional Tribunal's sentences are being ignored and it's about to be transformed into a puppet institution with unlawful acts that break the constitution. New laws that threaten the freedom of media have already been announced proudly. And now during the night the Military Police with people from the MInistry of Defence raided a NATO facility to forcibly remove officials with new goverments supporters, without going through proper channels and informing our NATO allies.

Do not listen to people who tell you nothing out of the ordinary is going on, and it's just a few people and supporters of the previous goverment who are overreacting. Very bad things are happening that threaten the security of the country as well as civil liberties and the foundations of democracy. You don't need some "apocalypse scenarios" and blood running in the streets for that. This is a creeping coup d'etat, there is no mistake about it.
It's a not a coup d'état if they won the freaking elections Breja. Remind me again who won the elections?

The situation is tense, but replacing the previous political appointees with new political appointees is par for the course in every kind of political transition all over the world. I and everyone with eyes can tell you that the way PiS is going about it is extremely aggressive, but that does not prove anything to its legitimacy. Cutting process corners seems to have happened under PO as well but not have caused a fuss.

Given that context, PiS and its supporters consider it justified to undo what they see as illegitimate corner cutting. And let me remind you - they won the elections. The fact their support is already eroding is good IMO, but deciding to go to war with PiS to accelerate their "death" is sure to kill the system. Acting within the system to resist the abuses of power seems to me obviously the correct course for this type of situation. It's harder, it's less satisfying than feeling like one is fighting evil, but it recognizes the truth that a lot of people voted for PiS and are happy with the direction they are taking.

Basically there's a lot of folks, that for whatever reason, find it more important / satisfying to fight PiS via demonization. PiS of course, and Kaczynski in particular are masters at demonization themselves. Still, if most of the folks now so worried had actually governed better earlier, we would not be where we are now right? Hence my opinion that a lot of this is a form of projection to avoid feeling responsible. They took the citizenship for granted and lost power. Now they are afraid, and in that fear seem to be more keen to burn the house than let others govern and make mistakes.

Because it should be obvious PiS is making mistakes. Super obvious. Unfortunately I don't think their opposition is forcing / manipulating them into those mistakes. And that is the scary thing IMO. That I can actually look at the players and consider Kaczynski to be a better politician - more in touch with the reality on the ground - than the opposition is sad as fuck. I mean this is a guy that keep money under the mattress...

As I say on occasion, the way to troll a troll is to treat him seriously. Not to try and troll him back. You guys are basically playing right into his hands and allowing him to play the victim card over and over and over. And over.

And let me remind you: I'm not saying you are to give him power. He already won it, in the freaking elections. You can't roll back time. Stop being in denial about the country you live in. Poland is not that modern yet, it will take decades for generational replacement to run its course and maybe give you the more liberal country we both want in like 20 years or so.


PS: And to your edit.

Read me carefully and try to find where have I said that what PiS is doing is legal or justified? If you pay attention I have said PiS considers it justified and I have implied the legality of what is happening is not black or white but murky grey.

Fear is the mind killer. I see a lot of fear, and too little conscience. It seems to me PiS is not afraid and is fully conscious, ergo they have all the advantage. Hopefully all they are doing will lose them support.
Post edited December 18, 2015 by Brasas
Posted December 18, 2015
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Brasas: It's a not a coup d'état if they won the freaking elections Breja. Remind me again who won the elections?
It is. The are usurping powers winning the election does not give them, breaking the constitution and attacking the foundations of the democratic system. That is a coup d'etat and winning the election has nothing to do with it. I'm sorry, but you seem to not understand the situation at all (I have slightly altered my previous post to clarify, if that helps).
I'm a firm beliver in democracy, and would never contest their right to make decisions, however stupid, that are within their lawful powers as a elected majority.
Post edited December 18, 2015 by Breja
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionHow long until Poland goes down the drain?(278 posts)(278 posts)
(278 posts)