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Trilarion: snip
He gave a voice to the class shifts that were emerging. I am of the opinion his voice was not overall a positive one, less revolutionary voices would have been much better. But humans being what they are, there is always a certain attraction to the radical.

So I see the welfare state and socialism as clearly descended from Marxism, BUT not necessarily so, and a lot is also due to Christian morality. I would argue that social progress towards more democratic/ more classless society would have been faster if not for the approaches born of Marxism. But well... historical counter factuals you know...
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Strijkbout: ... He is primarily the reason for the creation of European welfare states ...
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Trilarion: I thought the welfare states come from the rising of democracy. In a democratic system you just have to make at least some concessions to the poor, otherwise they do not vote for you. And this is true even for the US. Also I would rather say that welfare states are kind of a good thing, so being responsible for them is rather a praise.
Not really, the economic situation is far more important as any form of goverment is pretty much powerless to improve a bad economy, at least within the time between elections if we're talking about a democracy.

I see the welfare state more as a stopgap measure, but I agree it's better than revolution.
I am poor as crap right now. If you really believe in marxism and socialism, I want a gift copy of DOS:EE on gog, lol.

A double pack would be better, but I am not greedy. I just want my fair share.

Until I get my copy of DOS:EE on gog, I will assume you guys are full of crap. Put your money where my where your mouth is.

;-)
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shoveling: I am poor as crap right now. If you really believe in marxism and socialism, I want a gift copy of DOS:EE on gog, lol.

A double pack would be better, but I am not greedy. I just want my fair share.

Until I get my copy of DOS:EE on gog, I will assume you guys are full of crap. Put your money where my where your mouth is.

;-)
no, you're suppose to ask for "free" organic food, non-fluorinated water and a council house. and maybe something cheaper than romneycare. and since the interwebz is suppose to be a basic right thesedays, free wifi spots in your area.
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dick1982: don't those communities regularly get decimated by plagues or some kinda common virus because they also tend to be anti-medicine anit-vaxxers like the amish???
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Klumpen0815: No. I guess you just made that up, as usual.
what did i "made up"? pray tell. did i imagine the amish, viruses or the CDC?

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6322a4.htm
Measles cases have been reported from 18 states and New York City. Most cases were reported from Ohio (138), California (60), and New York City (26). Fifteen outbreaks have accounted for 227 (79%) of the 288 cases. The median outbreak size has been five cases (range: 3–138 cases). There is an ongoing outbreak involving 138 cases, occurring primarily among unvaccinated Amish communities in Ohio.

i guess you think i creatively wrote the above for the CDC 5 minutes ago? do elaborate. i have no idea how amazing i am.
Post edited October 29, 2015 by dick1982
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dick1982: snip
Because the Amish, hippies and communist farmers have so much in common as we all know... *sigh*
I'll just stop feeding the troll now.
Post edited October 29, 2015 by Klumpen0815
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Gremlion: Meh.
"Millions of killed by Stalin personally" is a mem in Russia, easiest way to play a game "spot the demshizoid" (schizophren-democrats, the ones, which have wet dreams about things like "Leadership of Nemtsov")
http://i.imgur.com/QLvFFNe.png - amount of sentences, declassified paper which was used by Khrushchev to do his report.
Considering amount of traitors, spies, marauders, nazists, rapists, people, suffering from untreated PTSD, caused by 30 years of semi-permanent wars, these number aren't far off from reasonable.

"Corn chatterbox" Khrushchev later proved himself as incompetent fuck, whose inadequate decisions still echoing. Maybe he badmouthed Stalin to look better? :)
Forget Stalin's cult of personality, maybe something more modern is your style? Comrade Putin's cult of personality, perhaps?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/29/russia-gulag-camps-putin-nationalism-soviet-history
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JudasIscariot: Longer than Gierek's rule :P Perhaps Bierut will rise from the dead too :D
I'd prefer Piłsudski. Dude would know how to end this shit. Fingers crossed.
Post edited October 30, 2015 by F4LL0UT
low rated
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shoveling: I am poor as crap right now. If you really believe in marxism and socialism, I want a gift copy of DOS:EE on gog, lol.

A double pack would be better, but I am not greedy. I just want my fair share.

Until I get my copy of DOS:EE on gog, I will assume you guys are full of crap. Put your money where my where your mouth is.

;-)
Yeah because if you don't get every video game you want, you will end up homeless, starving, with health problems and close to death wishing someone would just end your life quickly. It's laughable that you put new video games to play in the same category food, shelter and healthcare is in... And if you think NOT being homeless, NOT starving and NOT being healthy should be a privilege, then your level of belief in elitism makes you no different than those who believe in a caste system.

It seems the attached pic applies to you considering you are "poor as crap".

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shoveling: ... Marxism is probably responsible for the majority of all murders in the 20th century. Word.
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Trilarion: Marxism may have been the evilst thing, although Nationalsocialism was not much better either, but I would also say this is hardly the fault of Karl Marx.
Marxism has nothing to do with genocide. Evil people do have something to do with genocide though. And there are all kinds of evil people.
Attachments:
Post edited October 30, 2015 by monkeydelarge
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TARFU: Forget Stalin's cult of personality, maybe something more modern is your style? Comrade Putin's cult of personality, perhaps?
Do you realize that these kinds of articles appeal to emotions, not to dry statistic?
Post facts, make a comparison between Putin and Yeltsin

GDP/capita
Amount of unemployment
Amount of incarcerated people
purchasing power parity

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F4LL0UT: I'd prefer Piłsudski. Dude would know how to end this shit. Fingers crossed.
Attack Russia?
Yeah, it would end fast. :)
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TARFU: Forget Stalin's cult of personality, maybe something more modern is your style? Comrade Putin's cult of personality, perhaps?
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Gremlion: Do you realize that these kinds of articles appeal to emotions, not to dry statistic?
Post facts, make a comparison between Putin and Yeltsin

GDP/capita
Amount of unemployment
Amount of incarcerated people
purchasing power parity

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F4LL0UT: I'd prefer Piłsudski. Dude would know how to end this shit. Fingers crossed.
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Gremlion: Attack Russia?
Yeah, it would end fast. :)
Who in their right mind would want to go up against these guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rAHrHd2lcw
Post edited October 30, 2015 by monkeydelarge
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monkeydelarge: Who in their right mind would want to go up against these guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rAHrHd2lcw
Ukrainians say that they successfully defend from even better troops for almost two years.
Another interesting project - Tankothlone (Biathlon on tanks).
http://foto.rg.ru/photos/a29bce6e/index.html#1
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Gremlion: Attack Russia?
Yeah, it would end fast. :)
Sigh, no, what I was referring to was obviously the May Coup of 1926 where he stepped in when democracy was failing and which lead to the Sanation program which reformed the political scene. You see, not every single event in Polish history is about military encounters with or oppression by Russia. Maybe turn off Putin TV and pick up a history book once in a while.
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Strijkbout: ...I see the welfare state more as a stopgap measure, but I agree it's better than revolution.
A stopgap measure on the way to where?

I guess the best system will always be a compromise between different things. We should part from the illusion that one can find salvation in the extremes. It's very likely that welfare and all these ideas are staying and playing an important role in the future of the whole planet. The other strong ingredient will be democracy and a strong constitution - I'm still totally convinced of it.

So I might see welfare even not only as a stopgap measure but as the actual goal unless we come up with something else which will probably just be a smarter implementation of more or less the same concept.
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Brasas: ... I won't speculate a lot on future, just want to comment what I left quoted from the bottom. I already mentioned little will change, PiS is rather a conservative party, and economically I expect very little will actually change other than posturing. As for deeper political changes, as mentioned they don't have enough power for constitutional changes and rearranging power, despite also holding the presidency.

The end of liberal attitudes now... well I expect conservative attitudes will be empowered, but the country was already divided in those regards - mainly a generational thing I think, because consider '89 was less than 30 years ago so another 30 years will make a huge difference. Anyway obviously some rather extremist voices will feel encouraged, but the majority of PiS voters are just traditional catholics of some sort - so abortion and homosexuality will be the hot button topics.

As to the Hungarian path, that requires expanding on. In some ways the Hungarian nationalist path will be pursued, and the fact that former PO PM Tusk is in the EU leadership is going to facilitate anti-EU rhetoric to no end, as well some distancing from German positions is likely to continue. Notice I said continue, because despite the PO having had a conciliatory and friendly approach to Polish-German relations they were always the minority in that regard. Distrust of Germany runs very deep in Poland, despite the economic affluence having camouflaged that.

So in those aspects you could say PiS will follow Orban, but really it isn't following, it's convergence and Orban deserves zero credit for it. Anti-EU, anti immigration, nationalist voices are everywhere in Europe and gaining strength, from France to Finland and the UK to Greece. As for the Hungarian positions of friendliness to Russia, which might have been far from your mind, if anything PiS will consciously distance themselves from Orban in those regards.

Finally... Kaczynski. Well, I am curious about foreign press treatment because calling him a mastermind and implying the polish population has been fooled somehow or is blinded is... odd certainly, and bordering on misrepresentation. The kind of elitism that only helps reinforce the populist streak of PiS voter appeal. Now I don't like the guy, but he's at least as much a clown as a mastermind. A kind of true believer of sorts which therefore is more analogous to Lenin than to Stalin - and this is a point that I'd make forcefully to actual Poles so they keep a close eye on whoever is coming behind Kaczynski, because there the real danger lies.

I'll leave it there but happy to talk more if you want further elaboration.
Thank you for the long answer to which I could not reply until now. That is all very interesting. I guess one problem is that indeed people here do not know enough about the different political groups in Poland and do not know what PiS is really standing for.

I have nothing against a different economic programm. If they want to spend more money on social programms or less or nothing changes at all - I do not really mind. Also the different stance on climate politics and the favoring of coal power - why not. Everyone will soon see that the climate is changing and the resources are limited and then the pressure to act will rise. Europe is actually not a stronghold and cannot decouple itselft from the world. Everyone will learn that soon enough.

What I'm more concerned with is the climate in the society in poland. There is a certain risk that the laws will be changed in a certain way or the justice could be influenced as well as the media or just a general climate that discriminate or disadvantage minorities or more liberal minds (in the way of not being nationalistic). Basically the way of Hungary.

As an example take CDP and GOG. They certainly cannot do what they do with Polish people alone. In order to stay attractive for foreign programmers and artists they need to have a lively, open Warsaw.

If this is not existing anymore, maybe talented foreign people won't come and talented young Polish people might want to go to other places. I know that if I would live in Hungary I would probably feel a bit like living in a prison. In the end Nationalism and Socialism are probably very close in how they make you feel living under them.

But it's good to hear that actually part of these fears are unfounded so far and PiS is just a bit right of center but still more center than right, right?
Post edited October 30, 2015 by Trilarion