Irritating because materialist marxists always seem to carry a huge chip on their shoulder about the material conditions not really mattering. It's for the cause comrade, you know... the cause...

One could almost say it's a form of false conscience... but heck, even I can't use Marxist rhetoric without smirking.

But it has, as a matter of fact, and the fact you, and a lot of people like you, don't see it at all is THE main cultural problem on Earth IMO.

-Consider absolute poverty rather than any kind of relative poverty defined statistically. By which I mean, count people starving rather than people in the lowest decile of income or some such.
-Consider the world rather than just developed countries. Which is obvious and o your credit is what you yourself mentioned.
-Consider percentage of world population rather than total numbers because the number of humans alive has increased hugely at the same time.

And you can't miss the effect globalization, which was pretty much capitalism expanding to third world countries, has had since the Cold War ended.

Ergo, the fact there are "more" poor today (say one billion instead of 500 million) than 50 years ago is irrelevant because the proportional increase is below the population increase. We had 3 billions of new humans in the same period, which was practically doubling, many of which only survived precisely because of the medical, technological AND economical improvements capitalism caused. And of those 3 billion extra people only 500 million, so like a sixth are actually, absolutely poor, but because the total number of poor doubled, you all don't see what capitalism has done.

Let me repeat, the human population doubled, yet a minority of those new humans are actually poor. We had maybe 30% of poor, on a small population basis back in the 70s. We doubled the population basis and managed to reduce the proportion of poor, let's say to 20%, but somehow that doesn't count.

I have to laugh, so I won't cry. And people go on to say communist propaganda was not effective...

PS: all numbers straight out of my ass... sorry, I just don't feel like googling them from the UN or some other reputable source.


PPS: Dear lord Crosmando... one minute googling and see what I found: "...Poland lost about 178,000 sq km of its pre-war territory in the east, but gained some 101,000 sq km in the west and north."

But really, who gives a fuck about land when you consider all the blood spilled. :(

My irritation isn't because I don't get what you're saying. I do. And I think your angle is great for getting the wider perspective of things. And the 'I'd seen worse' attitude is good. But at the same time, this perspective isn't very healthy for the democratic debate. Our elected leaders will always seem kinda okay 'in perspective', because, at least they're elected, right?

Comparing something to a greater evil disables any kind of criticism. If our government consists of a shoe, a five year old kid, and a cute puppy, it would also be kinda okay, compared to a full-blown suppressive regime.

Human evil are always being justified with comparition to a greater evil. Like in Animal Farm, where critique of the current state of affairs is brushed away by comparing it to the greater evil in the past: "You don't want Jones to come back, do you?"

Again, I totally see your point. And it was an angle I haven't thought of myself ... but the stuff above makes me find it kinda irritating, too.

Read his posts.
We have some young people like that in Estonia aswell who haven't lived in Soviet times.
They are mostly young, urban, from middle class and/or upper class who haven't gt any problems with their own lives, haven't done serious work and other kinds of legally gray shit to survive. They read some communist propaganda and/or idealist tractates and think that's how the world should work. For some reason they don't trust people coming from that same system. I see those people all the time as I go to some weird bars that attract those subcultures.

TL;DR: he believes in fairy tales and hasn't had life throw s*it at his face yet, believes that all humans want to be equal and aren't thinking about themselves first.

Dammit. So no vacations to Poland anytime soon?

This image actually shows the best times I had working, with the exception of the commuting part. It meant that I could do my work from home, without putting on trousers, and without having to interact with the rest of the people at work. Do a bit of writing when I wake up, play a bit of a game, check some numbers while watching a movie, give some advice while going for a drink, then finish the plots when insomnia strikes at 03:00. Not to mention being able to drink while working. Definitely beats the traditional 9-5 work.

Edited after: TL:DR What isn't good for the democratic debate is the rejection of objectivity and rationality in the service of all kinds of ideologies. We can and should do better. Original post resumes.



I'm going to get out of the thread because I'm getting really hot right about now. And probably going to be unfair to you here. But Kasper, the point is to not dismiss the criticism or give credit to the criticism just like that.

The objective reality is what matters. And in that sense, I get the picture your subjective dislike of the current political change is why you think relativizing it is irritating. Put in other words, you think relativizing it is not good this time, but as we see with Crosmando, relativizing other kind of thing, like the absolute level of poverty / inequality in the world, or the land area that Poland gained / lost after WW2... that is kosher right?

Put in other words, if you want to make the point about what is actually worse with this change, make it. Like I did for example when I pointed (I tried to be neutral though and not assign a value) that the political change in Poland is very likely to lead to more repressive policies in the areas of reproductive rights and identity politics - or more realistically, to not implementing more progressive policies in those areas. Actually going back will be harder politically for PiS.

And much as liberals might dislike that lack of "progress", much as I dislike that because I want people to be free to make choices / mistakes... Judas is absolutely right that in a broader societal and even cultural scale, those are small potatoes and this transfer of power is quite ordinary.

I think it's centrist resignation really. The vast majority of people are centrist, or slightly left or right of centre, even if they're apolitical. The problem is that political extremism has become so ubiquitous at the moment that trying to establish or be a voice of reason has become nigh-on impossible, because nobody wants to listen to you unless you're spouting hatred against some populist target or another, be it foreigners, people of a different religion, gays, women, capitalists, feminists or whatever.

I know a lot of people that share centrist views - it's just fucking exhausting fighting on two fronts against extremists at both ends of the spectrum. Most rational people stay away from politics nowadays and believe that trying to bring common sense back to it is a lost cause. What most rational people fail to realise is that unless something is done, eventually one of the hard extremes is going to take control, and then any hope of rationality really will be lost.

Little do Canadian voters know that Justin Trudeau is the original model for that dark haired guy on the covers of all those cheesy romance novels which middle aged women voraciously read but will never admit:

Boy I wish someone could "gift" me (even a tiny piece of) a country as cool as Poland.
These folks have the Witcher series, the best UFO abduction case ever and that delicious borscht dish! :P

I'm not an American, I'm a Yooper. I don't care what he map says, if the rest of the country refuses to acknowledge us I say "fuck em!" :P

Your uncle may have been part-right; the USA of today is quite different from the one that existed before 2008. Obama promised change, and that's what we got. Now its just time to see if it was a change for the better or worse.

My Uncle also says the Holocaust never happened, that the abolitionist movement of the 1800s was a hoax (because Africans actually enjoyed being brought over here and made slaves), that he played for the Green Bay Packers, and that Barry Goldwater once tried to convince him to run for Senate.

If you want to give this man some kudos go ahead, but you're on your own. :P