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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 05, 2020
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ConsulCaesar: I voted for Lift, not agent.

According to Lift I don't suspect agent enough, and according to yog I want to lych him... When I said I'd like his claim or him being investigated/roleblocked.
Yep, my apologies, I wrote it up backwards.

Point still stands, though.
Posted February 05, 2020
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FlockeSchnee: 2 SPF making a _bolded_ post in gibberish/latin? involving agentcarr
Hey, I painstakingly translated that with Google Translate!

By painstakingly, I checked that Google Translate would spit out roughly the right thing if asked to translate it back. :P

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yogsloth: REDACTED
Intelligo, intelligo, intelligo.
Posted February 05, 2020
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ConsulCaesar: I voted for Lift, not agent.

According to Lift I don't suspect agent enough, and according to yog I want to lych him... When I said I'd like his claim or him being investigated/roleblocked.
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yogsloth: Yep, my apologies, I wrote it up backwards.

Point still stands, though.
Thanks for getting that clear, although I won't "lynch" one if the other is town. You put too much power on me. All I can do is voting, and the rest of the players would need to agree with me (big if), and all that if nothing else happens on Day 2 that makes me change my mind. I'll repeat it: I want agent's claim or him being investigated.
Posted February 05, 2020
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agentcarr16: snip
I AM SO SORRY!

I meant to say, Agent is NOT ruining the game for me. I left the word out by mistake as i was half-asleep and I deeply and sincerely apologize. Please forgive me.
Posted February 05, 2020
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yogsloth: Hey I have a quick message for trent, could everyone else please look away for a minute, please?

ets-lay ightkill-nay ockshcnee-flay onight-tay

shhh

OK everybody else can look now

.......

trent, I think they're onto us,
Alas we tried to keep the wool pulled over their eyes, guess our game play has degraded and we are no longer worthy. Although I was tempted to jump around with signal flags if it took much longer as it thought it was pretty obvious we were taking in code the whole time.

*sigh* Woe is me! *much weeping and gnashing of teeth*
Posted February 05, 2020
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yogsloth: I think agent vs Lift is town-on-town, I really do, maybe I'm fooled and agent's assholerly is some sort of fifth-level scum braining, but I really don't think so.... and I swear this is Town Lift.... are these really the only viable D1 lynch options at this point?
Okay, so. You keep bringing up that this Lift is a Town Lift. Why? What do you see in Lift that I can't see?

In my experience, Lift is the kind of person who, if playing as scum, has already won the game once he got people to trust him. When you Town clear scum Lift, then he has successfully backstabbed you before he could even do anything. I think that it's best to share how is he different from Supernatural Scum Lift, or SH Scum Lift, and how is he similar to say, Captain Sapphire Town Lift, so everyone is on the same page.
Posted February 05, 2020
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PookaMustard: Okay, so. You keep bringing up that this Lift is a Town Lift. Why? What do you see in Lift that I can't see?

In my experience, Lift is the kind of person who, if playing as scum, has already won the game once he got people to trust him. When you Town clear scum Lift, then he has successfully backstabbed you before he could even do anything. I think that it's best to share how is he different from Supernatural Scum Lift, or SH Scum Lift, and how is he similar to say, Captain Sapphire Town Lift, so everyone is on the same page.
Ummm from my memory scum lift is a little more... acquiescent? More willing to be reasonable? And Town life is like

*puts head down, charges*

"WHOOOOOOARGGGGGGGH"

Pretty sure I scummed with him in one of the most recent GOG games I played and that's how we managed things

I'd have to look it up though

I dunno, it's not the greatest read ever, just going with the gut here
Posted February 05, 2020
Note to all.......All below posts are replied to in the order I read them and without much peeking ahead, so things might've changed in other player's stances or my own as I go along....please bear that in mind as you read the below:
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RWarehall: You cannot win with investigations alone. What makes anyone think a Cop can even be protected? Ever hear of the Strongman power? And if you could win just by investigating, what's the point of playing if power roles rule all? The game is balanced to force us to chose widely to win with special powers sparse enough they might help a bit but are not enough to win by themselves.
Maybe any potential cop cannot be protected, or even help much, but(if we have one) then it's better than nothing I think.

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RWarehall: All a no-lynch does is give scum a free kill.
And if town lynch town by accident it gives scum two free kills...how is that better?

IMO going for lynches should be done once town has more info and stuff to make reads on AND the player pool is smaller/scum are more likely to be lynched when someone is picked for lynch.

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RWarehall: And to the no-lynchers...how about you start playing too. I think ZFR said we have until Saturday, we have 3 days to reach a consensus and you are throwing your hands in the air and giving up. We learn the most when we try to reach consensus, and see who is putting their votes where their mouth is.
I already voted before on some I strongly suspect, and saw it was likely going nowhere(at the time)...if someone I strongly suspect gets high enough and closer to lynch MAYBE i'd vote....else if the wagons go nowhere by deadline it'd be the same as voting nolynch.

I dunno about the others(I only keep sparse notes as note taking is new to me as per my play style, and sometimes forget stuff I read a day or so ago), but as for me: even without voting much or even atm for anyone I have still made my suspects list known if people want to read back on some of my prior posts.
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Lifthrasil: Wrong. We need information to solve this game. We get information from flips and from analyzing lynch wagons.
And we could likely get the same from analyzing the night kill and who voted what before then.

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Lifthrasil: If we keep following your 'logic', we keep no-lynching. Scum keep killing. We lose.
Who said I wanted us to no lynch every "day" or that people would do so because it was done once? Also(as I keep saying) which is better and gives us more time to find scum? Two dead town possibly per day or one?

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Lifthrasil: You want to base everything on the power roles - of which we don't even know which ones exist. If they exist at all. Or if they'll survive long enough to be useful, if they exist.
I am guessing(could be wrong though) OP likely added power roles to the game.....just a hunch, though.

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Lifthrasil: So, again, and this is also a notice to all newbies:

No-lynch is very, very bad for Town and therefore voting no-lynch is something which is either scummy or a newbie-error. It's never in the interest of Town on Day 1.
This can be seen as town trying to help town, but also you (if scum) trying to get a mislynch pushed through and give scum an advantage....same as my play can be seen as bad town play...you know that right?

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To all: I will likely think on my vote as soon as I catch up on all posts and reply a bit more....I will post this for now, though, to show I am working on catching up and so as to not go over the character limit.

(Also I did a reply to post 309 but botched the brackets so I have to redo that bit in a bit...will post my reply to that, some more replies, and maybe change my vote in an hour or so)
Posted February 05, 2020
Votus Conputatio

agent 3 - RWarehall, Lift, SirPrimalform
Lift 3 - Pooka, agent, ConsulCaesar
ConsulCaesar 3 - joppo, Carradice, yogsloth
Microfish 1 - trent
yogs 1 - FlockeShnee
trent 1 - Joe

No-lynch 1 - GameRager

Everyone else - 0
Not voting - Micro

14 players remaining - it takes 8 to lynch.

When you see a vote count, please check that your name is against the right person. Let me know if it isn't.
Posted February 05, 2020
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Lifthrasil: Wrong. We need information to solve this game. We get information from flips and from analyzing lynch wagons.
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GameRager: And we could likely get the same from analyzing the night kill and who voted what before then.
No. We couldn't. A night kill doesn't have a train to analyze. We don't see who is responsible for that death. A mis-lynch can be analyzed. You can see who pushed how hard, who had good reasons to do so and who just tagged along because it was convenient. In this way patterns emerge.

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Lifthrasil: If we keep following your 'logic', we keep no-lynching. Scum keep killing. We lose.
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GameRager: Who said I wanted us to no lynch every "day" or that people would do so because it was done once? Also(as I keep saying) which is better and gives us more time to find scum? Two dead town possibly per day or one?
But without the flip and wagon, you would be in the same situation on D2 as you are on D1. So why would you be willing without being sure then?
And here's the catch: you can NEVER be sure in this game. If we want to have a chance at winning, we have to take risks and we have to lynch. It's the main weapon of Town. So, seemingly paradoxically, two dead are better on D1 than only one dead from a NK. Of course, lynching scum would be better than lynching a Townie. Just as a hypothetical Doctor protecting the NK target would be better than him not managing to do so. But no-lynch is worse than a mislynch.

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Lifthrasil: So, again, and this is also a notice to all newbies:

No-lynch is very, very bad for Town and therefore voting no-lynch is something which is either scummy or a newbie-error. It's never in the interest of Town on Day 1.
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GameRager: This can be seen as town trying to help town, but also you (if scum) trying to get a mislynch pushed through and give scum an advantage....same as my play can be seen as bad town play...you know that right?
No, this is completely faction independent. That's a simple game fact gathered from experience. You can ask every experienced Mafia player. No-lynch is bad for Town. Especially on D1. ... Well, actually all the experienced Mafia players already told you so. Perhaps that's a sign that you should listen and not be stubborn?

And no, your play not only can be seen as bad play. It just is bad play. At least if you are Town, which I still assume. Even though you keep promoting a no-lynch, which is anti-Town. So far I put your insistence on this point down to inexperience and stubbornness.

Actually I did think like you do in my first game and proposed no-lynch as well. But I was quickly convinced that it's a bad idea by thinking the game mechanics through.
Posted February 05, 2020
To all: I am still reading/replying, but I am up to post 324 so far.....as for post 309's reply: It might seem a bit wonky as I pre post edited it and inserted it here due to messing up the formatting earlier(brackets were missing in one spot).

To micro: Sorry for formatting it as I did....the forum wouldn't let me correct the braket and repost it as is....all posts bits correspond to my reply bits as numbered.

To everyone else: I will re vote if I feel the need to as soon as I get through and reply to all replies I feel the need or desire to reply to.
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Microfish_1: 1. @GR: I get what you are saying, and I have seen town PRs lunched way too quickly. This is a potential issue. More on this later. If Agent is a town PR, I hope he puts up an extremely good defense that blows us away.

2. As for the sudden shift, while I know that being eliminated is unfun, and while i am not 100% convinced of Agents culpability, I am willing to bet he's not town more than anyone else. Of course, if he is town, I'm targeting lift, and I think the rest ought to as well. I am split about D1 lunches, but the benefits as presented by the very experienced players seem to outweigh the cons.

3. IF we lose two players a day without getting scum, we go from 14 (D1)-12 (d2)-10(d3)-8(d4)-6(d5) at which point, with three scum, we have lost. If we have a neutral player or a SK, we have lost sooner if we fail to hit scum. Even if we get 2 baddies on the first night (like my last game) we can still lose (Pooka pocketed me into oblivion that game).

4. Your "no vote" argument seems to favor the scum more than us town, unless you have a win condition of "must live" and you want as few lunched as possible. I think atm that any info is better than no info, as the alternative is D2, one fewer player, still no idea who to trust.

5. Your entire argument is based off of Agent being a PR or a cop being willing to ID himself on D2 to clear Agent. I don't see the later happening. ('Twould be foolish in the extreme...like putting mayo on peanut butter. Disgusting, I'd say, unless one was forced to do so.)

6. If you are scum, I have this to say to you and your coterie: be done with your prating and flimflam--it isn't going to work. In fact, the conspicuous number of times that you have referred to how bad of a player you are or that your preferred playstyle is "to have fun regardless of winning" makes me sadly suspect you of being less town than you claim. It reminds me of my comment which was dismissed as an AtE last fall.

7. I hope you have the perspicacity to join me in the democratic action of voting for someone.

In fact, typing this out has led me to stop mammering....
1. I was more against lynching him not matter what kind of town he is(as it's one less town on our side), but agreed.

2. Yes town is on my list as well, BUT if either Lift or Agent get lynched I think the other should be investigated(if we have a cop lurking in the game on our side) "overnight" rather than lynched...what do you think?

3. I still think voting and the risk of potentially lynching town is a bit too high atm....but them's just my two cents....take them as you will.

As said before many times, if we mislynch a fellow town we'd be down 2 town instead of 1...that's why I voted as I did and why I have stuck by it so far.

5. I didn't say I thought agent was cop, just that IF we have a cop then they should investigate one of the two(if we no lynch) or the remaining of the two(if one got lynched)....sorry if I confused you with that line of reasoning somehow. :)

6. I often explain myself due to my play style leading a good number to assume i'm scum in most games, so that people know and remember(when posting/making decisions) that it is a part of every game I play...that way I can maybe stick around a bit longer and play with everyone & not be lynched by fellow town in nearly every game I also play as town.

7. Now that I have read a bit further, it seems a lynch on agent is near certain....I might change it...gonna reply a bit more first, though.
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SirPrimalform: You're both making weak cases against each other and voting for each other.
It's enough to make me wonder if this is distancing and you've picked weak arguments to reduce the risk of actually having to lynch each other?
That is partially why the both of them are in my top suspects list atm.
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trentonlf: @everyone, It seems agent is headed toward a lynch and in my opinion it's a bad lynch. agent has been pushed into corners on flimsy reasons and so when he does input his opinion on the state of the game people start twisting it to look bad. If it's not obvious I think agent is Town, and if I'm wrong I'll be surprised.
I agree, and if I do put a vote on him I do hope he is actually scum, else I will be looking into every other who voted him and pushed for it(and I expect others to suspect me as well for hesitating so long if he is scum as that's proper town play imo).

Also nice breakdown of your reads.....it is appreciated.
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joppo: What if a townie is acting scummier than the scum? Then that person is being an idiot and a liability to town, we lynch them not only to analyze their wagon but also to remove a distraction.
I disagree...removing someone one thinks is town to remove "distractions" is a waste of one more town that can find/vote for scum and give us an edge in numbers over scum.


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joppo: If we hit a PR that townie with our lynch has a damned good reason to claim before the hammer hits, and if the PR is good enough they will probably be spared. In that case you might think they will be the NK, but for a townie that was as good as dead (lynched) they're at least drawing the NK away from another townie.
That's if they are believed, and even if they are they'd likely be the next night's NK unless we have a PR to block said NK.

Agreed that it could help draw away a NK from another townie, though, but(to me) the cost seems too high(two townies down, instead of one, as I have said to others).
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Carradice: Could anyone plz summarize the case against Agent? He is at minus-3 and the strongest against him are his terrible jokes, that have been taken seriously once and again. Except for Lift, if memory does not fail, who expressed the Votus as a way on enforcing a strict no-lying policy on D-1.

Also, it is surprising how that joking stuff has escalated into this. Are not the handling of PMs and the acts of apparent fishing better matters of discussion?
Tbh I want both Lift and Agent to live till the next day in case both are over zealous town just playing as they want to/feel it's best to.....but if one gets lynched it takes one off the list of targets for any potential cop to check into, if nothing else.

Also at least it is one of my top suspects atm...this alone is partially making me contemplate voting them as well & then analyzing the wagon afterwards.

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Carradice: So, let us put our vote where our voices are, on the option that currently looks the most solid one. In this case:
So do you expect a wagon to build on them or is this just a no lynch/throwaway vote?

Also if serious could you explain in more detail/refresh my memory why you voted for/suspect them?
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*Done to Post 324....might need 40 minutes or so to read/reply to the rest and get my thought in order re: maybe revoting* (Not a vote, OP)
Posted February 06, 2020
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Microfish_1: the only thing no-lunching does is shift the momentum of which side eliminates a player first.
If we hit town, though, then even if we went first we'd be helping scum anyways....that is part of why I hesitate to vote atm(or have hesitated so far).

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Microfish_1: the only way eliminating Agent would be awful is if he is town PR. bad enough if he is town vanilla, but we can live and lunch lift for being the driving force of agents lunch.
Fair enough, but if agent gets lynched I think any cop should check into Lift and then breadcrumb a bit so we can hopefully avoid lynching Lift if he's town, or know to lynch him if he's scum.
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ConsulCaesar: Just to take a stance, as everybody else has:

Votus Lifthrasil

Unless we decide that we want to hear agent's "serious" claim and we agree to get him to L-1 without lynching him prematurely.
1. Why vote for Lift and not agent as everyone else was/is? 2. What if agent claimed(and was town in actuality) and people didn't believe him and lynched him anyways or a scum used that opportunity to cast the hammer vote? Or what if we believed him/he was/is town and he got NKd anyways?
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Microfish_1: Agent is ruining the game for me, i'm just seeing him as scummier than lift...mostly. Lift has better logic, except agent knows stuff that almost clears him.
Eh, I like the silly joke/"joke" posts.....it makes the game more fun to read, if only a bit.

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Microfish_1: GR looks less town than he had.
That's normal....I often don't survive past day 2 or so in these games and go higher up on people's list as time goes on.


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Microfish_1: ALSO @ everyone-but-especially-those-who-haven't-played-mafia-on-gog-before. If you don't use it already, you really should get tampermonkey & the two extensions "Adalia Fundamentals" & "Barefoot Essentials." They help so much
Stop trying to get me to try new things....I dislike change. *old man noises*
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PookaMustard: Or you know, the game is too hectic for me. It's Day 1, and it's already Page 7 on "50 posts per page" setting, and it's post after post after post after post after post from an obscene amount of players compared to what I was used to in the prior games. And even then I'm actually on my normal posting rate for Mafia.
Lol at the link and yeah agreed....it can be hectic....that and my getting bored at such long walls of text(even though I also write such walls of text) lead me to sometimes skim if it seems some bit of text isn't informative or fluff/etc.

Although now I am trying to read more thoroughly to play better, and taking some sparse notes to help with memory issues....a bit more work than I like but it does help me a bit when playing. :)

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PookaMustard: Now, for the whole no-lynch idea: no. Just plain no. Wagon analysis will give us something to work with down the line. Figuring out who has done a nightkill can only take you so far. Besides, the odds for hitting scum on a no-lynch is 0%, but the odds for hitting scum on a lynch is higher than 0%. The risk is worth the reward.
What are the odds for hitting scum atm? I know they are pretty low(compared to hitting town), at the very least.

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PookaMustard: Yeah, I'm not a fan of Agent claiming a different role every two minutes. I passed the joke claim at the beginning, thought it OK by early Day 1 standards, but...gah. The time for jokes is over. This is another one of those Day 1s where so many things are going on, and here he is just not helping.
Eh, I like it a bit as it makes the game more fun(like flavor by players and OPs), and to me it seems NAI.

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PookaMustard: I'm still sticking to my Lift wagon but would lynch Agent if he's still leading the wagon by Friday night or Saturday morning. No other strong leads apart from yogs+trent.
Your lists seem to be the same as mine, and agreed mostly on this....if agent is near lynch and it's likely he'll be lynched anyways(and he didn't claim even a bit by L-2 or even L-1 while online) then i'd likely also change my vote to him to possibly hit scum.

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PookaMustard: *you can kill me
What? What does this mean?
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Lifthrasil: If you don't have the time to play the game and actually contribute to your team, whichever that may be, then why play at all? Just trolling is not a nice move and makes the game more difficult for everybody else.
First a nitpick...I DO wish people would stop calling any sort of joking trolling...not all joking or jokes is/are trolling. That said:

Maybe he is like me and just wanted/wants to be a part of something with his fellow goggers/goggites? :)

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Lifthrasil: @all: at this point I would ask all of you to either lynch agent or me. We're the leading wagons anyhow and it would be good if one of us were removed from the game. Agent's behaviour is really anti-town (and anti-game). Yes, my tenacity with LAL and maybe tunneling on agent and the PM stuff was probably disruptive too. I reacted badly to agent's 'jokes'. You can decide yourself which is worse. Trolling or getting worked up about it.
Sounds good......IF Agent or you gets to L-2 I will likely add my vote in, and hope we hit scum. If I do so, though, I hope any cop investigates the other asap.
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Lifthrasil: Tell me, what is so towny about agent in your way, that you are willing to accept his repeated 'joke' false claims and you're not even sure you want to hear his serious claim? And are worried that he might get lynched?

Or is he just your scumbuddy and that determines which side you choose in this conflict?
Wait, you seemed to be ok with either you or agent being lynched in post 333, and now in THIS post you seem to be casting shade on someone for voting for you? Why? It's what you asked people to do.

(To op, NOT a vote)
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yogsloth: If your buddies invited you over to play Mafia, would you sit down at the table and decide to not vote and not lynch anybody because you might get it wrong?
Don't know about others, but as for myself: If you may have noticed I am very careful with my votes and very indecisive sometimes if I don't have any concrete leads to make a call off of.
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FlockeSchnee: What else I noticed:
1 GameRager posts a lot of things and then all he does is bump the thread without any further comment, not even a joke about that "over complicated mess" I posted, completely ignored the whole thing. That's quite unlike him, judging from what I have seem about him on the forums so far.
Sometimes I miss posts, but of the ones I DO notice(most of them usually) I often reply mainly to ones I have questions on/take interest in....otherwise there'd likely be multiple walls of text posts by me for people to read and no one would want that, I think.
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Done to Post 343...one more post ought to do it to finish up....almost done, everyone. :)
(Not a vote, OP)
Posted February 06, 2020
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Lifthrasil: No. We couldn't. A night kill doesn't have a train to analyze. We don't see who is responsible for that death.
Aren't there PRs in mafia games who can watch to see who NKd someone if they watched a certain person that day/night?

If that's the case then there's a slight chance we'd see who did the NK. Barring that we could analyze who voted what and who posted/said what the previous "day" & also look into who interacted with that NKd person as well....so it's not like we'd have nothing to go on.

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Lifthrasil: A mis-lynch can be analyzed. You can see who pushed how hard, who had good reasons to do so and who just tagged along because it was convenient. In this way patterns emerge.
As long as the data is read correctly, then I agree.

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Lifthrasil: And here's the catch: you can NEVER be sure in this game. If we want to have a chance at winning, we have to take risks and we have to lynch. It's the main weapon of Town. So, seemingly paradoxically, two dead are better on D1 than only one dead from a NK. Of course, lynching scum would be better than lynching a Townie. Just as a hypothetical Doctor protecting the NK target would be better than him not managing to do so. But no-lynch is worse than a mislynch.
If you may have noticed I like to play it safe usually(well most times anyways) and sometimes am indecisive.....I just don't want us to lose any town unnecessarily.

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Lifthrasil: No, this is completely faction independent. That's a simple game fact gathered from experience. You can ask every experienced Mafia player. No-lynch is bad for Town. Especially on D1. ... Well, actually all the experienced Mafia players already told you so. Perhaps that's a sign that you should listen and not be stubborn?
It may be a bit stubborn but it is how I like to play as it makes the game more enjoyable for me and seems to make more sense.....when I hear veteran players say "x is good play" and "y is bad play" and to "just trust them" it turns me off more from possibly listening...know what I mean?

Also yeah i'm pulling a partial scene play, but at least I play without the assumption that others not playing as I do are automatically scum as he seemed to do in the SH game.

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Lifthrasil: Actually I did think like you do in my first game and proposed no-lynch as well. But I was quickly convinced that it's a bad idea by thinking the game mechanics through.
Convinced....key word....in life I noticed there are many things people think are right/wrong if enough people think the same way. I tend to follow my feelings/gut rather than just go along with what is "best" to do as said by others.

If that makes me seem less town/a good player by doing so, then so be it....but I want to have fun playing and be myself rather than something i'm not.
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All the above said, I am not opposed fully to a lynch if it's one I strongly suspect and there is a good chance they will be lynched......if one of my top picks gets to L-2 I will vote, or around that point...otherwise i'd rather not vote someone who either is on my list but who might not get to lynch or vote to lynch someone who isn't on my list that is close to lynch.
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To all: Done for now....will watch the votes as we approach deadline and IF one of my picks gets close to lynch i'll likely cast a new vote then.

(To OP: Not a vote)

Also: If anyone has any questions for me or replies to my replies/posts I will be online for the next several hours....later all.
Posted February 06, 2020
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GameRager: To all: Done for now....will watch the votes as we approach deadline and IF one of my picks gets close to lynch i'll likely cast a new vote then.
Remind me again real quick who those top picks are...?
Posted February 06, 2020
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GameRager: To all: Done for now....will watch the votes as we approach deadline and IF one of my picks gets close to lynch i'll likely cast a new vote then.
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yogsloth: Remind me again real quick who those top picks are...?
Lift for the insistence on LAL before and his back/forth recently with agent, agent for his silly claims and his back/forth with Lift, you for your silly claim and some other things I forget atm(but Lift/Agent seem more suspect to me than you), and Trent I think(would need to check notes, old posts, etc for the reasons for that and to see if anything else caught my eye).

That is my main list atm, and I think any of the above should either be investigated(in that order as above) if we have a cop/etc or lynched if we don't have a cop/etc.
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General discussionHarry Potter and GOG Mafia #64(1552 posts)(1552 posts)
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