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General discussionGOG Mafia Reboot: Battlestar GOGlactica(1581 posts)(1581 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 09, 2018
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Damnation: Tell me about these "other Town players", and why you're one of them? Day 1 only has one town player - you, if you have a PM that states as such. You know nothing of the setup, and know nothing of anyone else - the setup could very well be 1 town and 12 Jesters. How do you know there are other town players?
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Bookwyrm627: Seriously, Damnation? Assuming there are other town players is the most basic, logical assumption a townie could possibly make this early in the game. Barring clues/information to the contrary, there is no reason to assume there aren't any town players (or other townies, if you are town), and I say that having participated in two separate "No townies at all" games.

Good grief, man. If you're going to smear someone, at least try to make it look plausible.
I'm not attempting to smear him, I'm fishing for reactions. And you're right, it's the most basic assumption, but it's still that - an assumption. And Do not he says the "other town players", meaning he is strongly attempting to convince us he is town - I'd argue that's wasted energy. Why would you spent so much energy as he has appearing town, if he actually is town?

You claim I'm smearing him - I'm not, and I'm not attacking him. I'm aggressively asking him questions. How he (Or anyone else for that matter) answers, is what I'm looking for. So thank you, for jumping to his defense :)
Posted July 09, 2018
Pressed reply too early.

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Damnation: How does this make any logical sense? Joe accused you of shutting down discussion, so you claim by meta you must be town?
No. I meant this to show that this wasn't an example of shutting down discussion. I didn't mean it to show that it means I must be town.
I mentioned that I was town last time I did that not because it proves I am somehow town now, but because it shows that it was a genuine statement made by me back then and not an attempt by scum to shut down discussion.


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Damnation: How so? I'm not asking you to cut out why you think X and Y is scum, I'm asking you to explain why X being scum excludes Y being scum. This belies background knowledge.
If both hypotheses are contradictory.
I just said it's OK to have two hypotheses H and G that are contradictory because if H turns true than G turns false and vice versa. If they are not contradictory then X being scum doesn't exclude Y being scum.

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Damnation: And confirmation from someone else was important... why?
Again, what?
I never met Joe on the forums before; I never played mafia with him. I wanted someone else who knew him to confirm or not whether Joe's usual posting style is sloppy or not. Vitek confirmed it. I thanks him.

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Damnation: Yes, it's a logical assumption, sure, but you still KNOW nothing of such, so why state it as if it is certain?
Because all games I read guides on had multiple town players. I never even knew games with single town existed.

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Damnation: And why would you be afraid of getting lynched? You claim you're town, but are still afraid of the lynchhammer? If you're town and you get lynched, you still provide information. Yes, the lynch is best used on scum, but any town should be willing to sacrifice themselves if it leads to finding toasters to wreck.
Where did you get that idea from? Where did I write I'm afraid of being lynched???

Quite the contrary, if my lynch helps town then so be it.
Posted July 09, 2018
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ZFR: Pressed reply too early.

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Damnation: How does this make any logical sense? Joe accused you of shutting down discussion, so you claim by meta you must be town?
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ZFR: No. I meant this to show that this wasn't an example of shutting down discussion. I didn't mean it to show that it means I must be town.
I mentioned that I was town last time I did that not because it proves I am somehow town now, but because it shows that it was a genuine statement made by me back then and not an attempt by scum to shut down discussion.

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Damnation: How so? I'm not asking you to cut out why you think X and Y is scum, I'm asking you to explain why X being scum excludes Y being scum. This belies background knowledge.
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ZFR: If both hypotheses are contradictory.
I just said it's OK to have two hypotheses H and G that are contradictory because if H turns true than G turns false and vice versa. If they are not contradictory then X being scum doesn't exclude Y being scum.

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Damnation: And confirmation from someone else was important... why?
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ZFR: Again, what?
I never met Joe on the forums before; I never played mafia with him. I wanted someone else who knew him to confirm or not whether Joe's usual posting style is sloppy or not. Vitek confirmed it. I thanks him.

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Damnation: Yes, it's a logical assumption, sure, but you still KNOW nothing of such, so why state it as if it is certain?
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ZFR: Because all games I read guides on had multiple town players. I never even knew games with single town existed.

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Damnation: And why would you be afraid of getting lynched? You claim you're town, but are still afraid of the lynchhammer? If you're town and you get lynched, you still provide information. Yes, the lynch is best used on scum, but any town should be willing to sacrifice themselves if it leads to finding toasters to wreck.
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ZFR: Where did you get that idea from? Where did I write I'm afraid of being lynched???

Quite the contrary, if my lynch helps town then so be it.
Hmm, excellent. I see I have mistaken some of your statements and made a fool of my self in certain cases (But perhaps that is exactly what I'm looking to do?)

I still find issue with your explanation on the idea of Joe's formatting - you wanted confirmation because you didn't know if this was just how he was. Alright. I guess what I'm looking for in asking you why is "why is his formatting so important"? I know the two of you had a discussion on it (Him saying slip-ups are easier covered up in well formatted posts, you saying the contrary), but if this is what we're founding cases on, day 1 is way weaker than I remember. And I remember much more substantial cases being build on day 1.

You said you hoped the "other town players" wouldn't lynch you, even if for newbie mistakes - that to me says you do not wish to get lynched. If you really do get lynched for newbie mistakes alone, I must say I will grieve, for that would make useless cases.

As I said to Bookwyrm, I was fishing for a reaction, and I'm very pleased with yours, well done. Bookwyrm's on the other hand, is very interesting.
Posted July 09, 2018
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Damnation: You said you hoped the "other town players" wouldn't lynch you, even if for newbie mistakes - that to me says you do not wish to get lynched.
I said other town players wouldn't be mad at me. Not lynch me. i.e. after I'm lynched and revealed townie they wouldn't go: "Damn that ZFR. Because of his newbie mistakes we're now in a much worse position".
Posted July 09, 2018
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Damnation: I'm not attempting to smear him, I'm fishing for reactions. And you're right, it's the most basic assumption, but it's still that - an assumption. And Do not he says the "other town players", meaning he is strongly attempting to convince us he is town - I'd argue that's wasted energy. Why would you spent so much energy as he has appearing town, if he actually is town?

You claim I'm smearing him - I'm not, and I'm not attacking him. I'm aggressively asking him questions. How he (Or anyone else for that matter) answers, is what I'm looking for. So thank you, for jumping to his defense :)
Here's my reaction: Baffled concern.

He says "other town players" while talking about people that might get mad about him getting lynched over newbie mistakes. I'd think it was obvious that wolves aren't going to be particularly upset if newbie mistakes get a town ZFR lynched. Nor do I display any surprise that someone claims to be town; that's pretty much par for the course, since seriously claiming to be scum will likely get you lynched.

Your 'aggressive questions' are asked in such a way as to make it look like ZFR is scum. Honestly, if ZFR does flip wolf, this leaves me looking at you as the next most likely to be wolf. This looks like either a really bad attempt at distancing or an attempt at dragging a town player down with you if you flip wolf. Or crazed townie attacking another player, I guess. Sorry, crazed "whatever", since by your own logic I shouldn't think of you as town.

And before you ask, ZFR flipping town doesn't clear you, and you flipping wolf doesn't implicate ZFR. Not for me, not at this juncture.
Posted July 09, 2018
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Damnation: You said you hoped the "other town players" wouldn't lynch you, even if for newbie mistakes - that to me says you do not wish to get lynched.
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ZFR: I said other town players wouldn't be mad at me. Not lynch me. i.e. after I'm lynched and revealed townie they wouldn't go: "Damn that ZFR. Because of his newbie mistakes we're now in a much worse position".
Roger, I read it as you being afraid of appearing to much of a newbie and then getting lynched because of it (Damn it, I'm becoming Joe, keep typing lunch instead of lynch...)
Posted July 09, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: He says "other town players" while talking about people that might get mad about him getting lynched over newbie mistakes. I'd think it was obvious that wolves aren't going to be particularly upset if newbie mistakes get a town ZFR lynched. Nor do I display any surprise that someone claims to be town; that's pretty much par for the course, since seriously claiming to be scum will likely get you lynched.
You think claiming scum would get you lynched? I'm more convinced it would cause a lot of discussion of scrutiny - and potentially brigging in this game. It would be an interesting gambit, I have to say.

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Bookwyrm627: Your 'aggressive questions' are asked in such a way as to make it look like ZFR is scum. Honestly, if ZFR does flip wolf, this leaves me looking at you as the next most likely to be wolf. This looks like either a really bad attempt at distancing or an attempt at dragging a town player down with you if you flip wolf. Or crazed townie attacking another player, I guess. Sorry, crazed "whatever", since by your own logic I shouldn't think of you as town.
The questions are asked in such a way to ensure a legitimate reaction. Making the interrogated appear scum in my questioning will ensure that. To me, everyone is scum until proven otherwise. Yes, logically everyone cannot be scum, but I have no way of knowing whether player X is a toaster or crew, let alone player Y, Z, A, and B. This is what I mean by the by, as to my logic of there currently being no other town players. Also, I like your options are either A) I'm scum, or B) I'm scum, and a thrown in option C) of you questioning my sanity. (The "I guess" clearly shows you do not believe this, and only threw it in to cover the possibility).

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Bookwyrm627: And before you ask, ZFR flipping town doesn't clear you, and you flipping wolf doesn't implicate ZFR. Not for me, not at this juncture.
Anyone flipping anything shouldn't be clearing anyone of anything this early.

You have become more heated by my post than ZFR did. Why, I wonder, if your reaction is truly just "baffled concern". But surely you will use this post to either cemet your opinion of me being a toaster, or further questioning my mental stability, I'm sure.
Posted July 09, 2018
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ZFR: I said other town players wouldn't be mad at me. Not lynch me. i.e. after I'm lynched and revealed townie they wouldn't go: "Damn that ZFR. Because of his newbie mistakes we're now in a much worse position".
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Damnation: Roger, I read it as you being afraid of appearing to much of a newbie and then getting lynched because of it (Damn it, I'm becoming Joe, keep typing lunch instead of lynch...)
In retrospect I see my statement might have been ambiguous.
I meant
I hope the other Town players don't end up too mad at me for (my "doing newbie things" and getting lynched).

While you understood
(I hope the other Town players don't end up too mad at me for my "doing newbie things") and getting lynched.

However if it was the latter, the way you understood it, I'd have written:
I hope the other Town players don't end up too mad at me for my "doing newbie things" and get me lynched.
Posted July 09, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: He says "other town players" while talking about people that might get mad about him getting lynched over newbie mistakes. I'd think it was obvious that wolves aren't going to be particularly upset if newbie mistakes get a town ZFR lynched. Nor do I display any surprise that someone claims to be town; that's pretty much par for the course, since seriously claiming to be scum will likely get you lynched.
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Damnation: You think claiming scum would get you lynched? I'm more convinced it would cause a lot of discussion of scrutiny - and potentially brigging in this game. It would be an interesting gambit, I have to say.
Read what I actually said: "seriously claiming scum will likely get you lynched."

But hey, why assume when we can test! You should seriously claim to be scum, and lets see what happens. For Science!

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Damnation: The questions are asked in such a way to ensure a legitimate reaction. Making the interrogated appear scum in my questioning will ensure that.
A legitimate reaction? You distorted his words all to heck (just like you distorted mine in the above quote), and that's why I stepped in. It was bad enough that I stopped to remind myself that this might be wolf!you trying to make wolf!ZFR look better by tossing him such softball accusations to refute.

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Damnation: To me, everyone is scum until proven otherwise.
I can understand this as a starting point. Not what I'd do, but not a terrible place to start.

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Damnation: Yes, logically everyone cannot be scum, but I have no way of knowing whether player X is a toaster or crew, let alone player Y, Z, A, and B. This is what I mean by the by, as to my logic of there currently being no other town players. Also, I like your options are either A) I'm scum, or B) I'm scum, and a thrown in option C) of you questioning my sanity. (The "I guess" clearly shows you do not believe this, and only threw it in to cover the possibility).
1) Completely incorrect. Everyone can, in fact, be scum. See above about being in two different "No townies at all" games.

2) What happened to "the setup could very well be 1 town and 12 Jesters. How do you know there are other town players?" ? At least be consistent.

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Damnation: Also, I like your options are either A) I'm scum, or B) I'm scum, and a thrown in option C) of you questioning my sanity. (The "I guess" clearly shows you do not believe this, and only threw it in to cover the possibility).
*shrug* Your interrogation was simply that bad. It takes some doing for me to wrap my mind around the idea of a townie doing it. The "I guess" is me acknowledging it as a possibility.

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Bookwyrm627: And before you ask, ZFR flipping town doesn't clear you, and you flipping wolf doesn't implicate ZFR. Not for me, not at this juncture.
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Damnation: Anyone flipping anything shouldn't be clearing anyone of anything this early.
You've just thrown some Left-Field questions at somebody. Is there any reason to assume that you wouldn't throw some more at me?

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Damnation: You have become more heated by my post than ZFR did. Why, I wonder, if your reaction is truly just "baffled concern". But surely you will use this post to either cemet your opinion of me being a toaster, or further questioning my mental stability, I'm sure.
If you really wanted to summarize my intervention, then "What the ever loving crap is this crap?" would do nicely.
Posted July 09, 2018
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SirPrimalform: The sort of mostly unprompted OMBHS in post 255 strikes me as someone panicking with a guilty conscience. I mean bler didn't even actually vote for them yet.
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Damnation: I'm not sure I can agree with you that his vote is "Oh my goat, he sucks". To me he does make an interesting observation - any lynch, even for reasons of randomness, provides information on D2. Why would bler claim ZFR's lynching would yield nothing?`
Excuse me, I believe I said "Oh my boat, he sucks!". And of course any lynch provides the basic information of the cardflip. I think what bler was saying is that if someone flips town, there's less info in the wagon if it wasn't driven by a good reason. I see where bler is coming from.

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SirPrimalform: The sort of mostly unprompted OMBHS in post 255
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ZFR: What is OMBHS? "O my ??? he sucks"? a variation of OMGUS?
Well I think Joe coined it as "Oh my bod" but due to Damnation's above post it is now "Oh my boat".

But yes, it's just a spontaneous mutation of OMGUS.

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Bookwyrm627: Then it reads more or less correctly. :P

A lot of things, taken in isolation, can look super scummy. This is why you don't just take them in isolation.

Taken in the context of the thread, that comment was a simple acknowledgement that several people (at least 4, just from memory) aren't interested in lynching Joe right now. I'm not so arrogant as to believe I can convince nearly half the player base, on Day 1, when I'm already outnumbered by the voices calling him town.

My vote was parked uselessly, so I moved it in hopes of starting a viable wagon. I've seen some interest in Cristi, but I haven't seen much interest in Ele.
Err, let the record show that those quotes are completely cocked up. :P

But yes. I wasn't taking them in isolation, but I really do think it's worth at least referring back to previous reasoning in the post you cast a vote in. Perhaps I'm reading into the wording too much, but talking about starting a wagon feels different from simply casting a vote. Interesting you mention Ele, since I have the both of you pegged as scummy.

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Bookwyrm627: I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding here, whether deliberate or accidental. The vibes I get are worse and worse the more of this post I read, culminating with this:

Seriously, Damnation? Assuming there are other town players is the most basic, logical assumption a townie could possibly make this early in the game. Barring clues/information to the contrary, there is no reason to assume there aren't any town players (or other townies, if you are town), and I say that having participated in two separate "No townies at all" games.

Good grief, man. If you're going to smear someone, at least try to make it look plausible.
Uhhhh... it's fairly obvious Damnation means the only verified townie at the start of the game is yourself and in a closed setup you can be sure what's lurking there in the dark. Scummier still.

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Damnation: Hmm, excellent. I see I have mistaken some of your statements and made a fool of my self in certain cases (But perhaps that is exactly what I'm looking to do?)
"I know I fell off the sofa, Madame. There's no need to tell me! Everything I do is carefully planned, Madame. I know that! Now then, eh? What was I saying?"


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Damnation: You think claiming scum would get you lynched? I'm more convinced it would cause a lot of discussion of scrutiny - and potentially brigging in this game. It would be an interesting gambit, I have to say.
In most games it would probably get you nommed. Uh lunched. But yes, with the brig there's interesting possibility of neutralising that person. Of course you've got to question why anyone would claim scum. Scum wouldn't, so who would?

The brig would certainly be a frustrating place for a jester.
Posted July 10, 2018
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Bookwyrm627: Read what I actually said: "seriously claiming scum will likely get you lynched."

But hey, why assume when we can test! You should seriously claim to be scum, and lets see what happens. For Science!
Oh, I distorted that quote? Your emphasis on "seriously" means what? And claiming it "likely" gets you lynched means you think it gets you lynched, otherwise the statement is entirely noncommital and useless - there's a chance of the opposite happening, and my response says nothing of the opposite.

How can I pass that up! Hey! Everyone! I'm as scummy as the come! I'm a real toaster here! Lynch me! I'm here! Lynch me now! Come on guys, try to go purging!

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Bookwyrm627: 1) Completely incorrect. Everyone can, in fact, be scum. See above about being in two different "No townies at all" games.

2) What happened to "the setup could very well be 1 town and 12 Jesters. How do you know there are other town players?" ? At least be consistent.
1) I'd argue that, if there is only scum, then no one is scum. If you do not have a concept, how can you have it's opposite?

2) Because the OP clearly mentions Mafia being interchangeable with Cylon, ergo, Mafia is involved. So unless there are alternate win conditions for Cylons than the usual one, it means there must be more town then mafia. I never stated I thought the game was 1 town, 12 jesters - I only said I could be a possibility, and I have no disproven my own stated possibility. Go figure.

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Bookwyrm627: *shrug* Your interrogation was simply that bad. It takes some doing for me to wrap my mind around the idea of a townie doing it. The "I guess" is me acknowledging it as a possibility.
Maybe it was bad on purpose? Maybe I just suck at this game? Who knows? (I'm not sure I do, I do actually think I'm incredibly rusty).
You cannot think of town doing this, yet you can think of scum doing this? I'm not sure if I should take that as a serious insult, or as you didn't read my position on town strategy in the post that prompted you to engage me.

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Damnation: Anyone flipping anything shouldn't be clearing anyone of anything this early.
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Bookwyrm627: You've just thrown some Left-Field questions at somebody. Is there any reason to assume that you wouldn't throw some more at me?
I've shown you I'm capable of things, why should you be safe from my inane ramblings? Besides, I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with the quoted text, as in genuinely I do not understand.

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Bookwyrm627: If you really wanted to summarize my intervention, then "What the ever loving crap is this crap?" would do nicely.
This is this second time you felt need to state what your reaction was (or, at the very least, what you want me to interpret your reaction as)

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SirPrimalform: Excuse me, I believe I said "Oh my boat, he sucks!"
Eh, whatever floats your goat.

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SirPrimalform: I think what bler was saying is that if someone flips town, there's less info in the wagon if it wasn't driven by a good reason. I see where bler is coming from.
That's very likely the case, I just don't see ZFR's vote as much "Oh my GOAT! You suck!" as you do, I guess.

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SirPrimalform: Uhhhh... it's fairly obvious Damnation means the only verified townie at the start of the game is yourself and in a closed setup you can be sure what's lurking there in the dark. Scummier still.
Really, I was hoping no one was going to cut it out like that. Oh well :)

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SirPrimalform: "I know I fell off the sofa, Madame. There's no need to tell me! Everything I do is carefully planned, Madame. I know that! Now then, eh? What was I saying?"
This is amazing! I need to watch A Shot in the Dark now!

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SirPrimalform: In most games it would probably get you nommed. Uh lunched. But yes, with the brig there's interesting possibility of neutralising that person. Of course you've got to question why anyone would claim scum. Scum wouldn't, so who would?

The brig would certainly be a frustrating place for a jester.
It's officially lunch instead of lynch now, isn't it?
Posted July 10, 2018
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Damnation: It's officially lunch instead of lynch now, isn't it?
Yes.
Posted July 10, 2018
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SirPrimalform: Err, let the record show that those quotes are completely cocked up. :P
...Agreed.

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SirPrimalform: But yes. I wasn't taking them in isolation, but I really do think it's worth at least referring back to previous reasoning in the post you cast a vote in.
I saw no reason to reiterate the reasons for the vote after I've already stated them less than a day and 30 posts prior. It isn't like my reasons were old information.

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SirPrimalform: Perhaps I'm reading into the wording too much, but talking about starting a wagon feels different from simply casting a vote.
I was breaking the wagon ice, so to speak, since I'd seen a few people mention Cristi as being scummy, but no one has actually voted her.

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SirPrimalform: Interesting you mention Ele, since I have the both of you pegged as scummy.
Why is it interesting that I mention Ele?

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SirPrimalform: Uhhhh... it's fairly obvious Damnation means the only verified townie at the start of the game is yourself and in a closed setup you can be sure what's lurking there in the dark. Scummier still.
Neither ZFR nor Damnation were talking about particular players (except self) as verified town. They were talking about the generic mass of other players that also rolled town, without indicating any particular number or individuals, and Damnation's 'aggressive question' to ZFR was about ZFR apparently knowing that there are some other townies mixed into the setup. As if talking like "there are multiple townies" is a fact is somehow unreasonable.

Sure, in a closed setup you can't be sure exactly what the setup is, and technically there might only be one townie in the entire game, but assuming 'there are other townies besides me' is the most logical, basic assumption you can make. Even Damnation later says "Yes, logically everyone cannot be scum".

It was Damnation casting worthless shade at ZFR, and I called him on it.
Posted July 10, 2018
Firstly:
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trentonlf: @everyone, I will do my best to post more today but no guarantees. My oldest daughter is having surgery to remove a large cyst from one of her ovaries and his while she’s pregnant. If all goes well, and it should, I’ll be back on later today.
Congratulations! Sending best wishes for your daughter and her child, and hoping it was a swift procedure and she recovers quickly.

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HypersomniacLive:
Best of luck with your power

RE Flub's Avatar:
After re-reading it all, I think that using avatars is still meta but why would he put a pylon/cylon/traffic cone on there at all, I still don't think that's a town thing to do. More like a Scum getting a high from double bluffing people.
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Damnation: Well, considering flubbster mentioned that "Prange Pylon of Justice" may or may not ve mentioned in his role pm, I'd say it's closer to a soft flavour claim that anything here. And yes, it gives me an idea of who he is then, flavourwise.
@Damn - explicitly - do you think this means Flub is a Town Cop?

Meta-analysis:
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Damnation: FWIW, I remember SPF as trying hard to appear non-scummy. But this is way metaing is not very constructive - either his playstyle has evolved and he is playing into old tropes consciously, or it is completely consistent meaning his playstyle cannot tell us if he is town or scum based on it - thus rendering analysis of the meta completely fruitless.
Tell me, what does all this meta discussion of other players tell you about their alignment? If it's more than nothing, I'm genuinely curious: how can you be so sure it IS more than nothing?
Trent, ZFR and Cristie - what's your response to this? (most meta discussion seems to come from you).


@Book
is your suspicion of Cristie entirely based on the avatar hunt? How does this relate to the The Sleeper Cylon quesiton please?


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Bookwyrm627: Read what I actually said: "seriously claiming scum will likely get you lynched."

But hey, why assume when we can test! You should seriously claim to be scum, and lets see what happens. For Science!
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Damnation: Oh, I distorted that quote? Your emphasis on "seriously" means what? And claiming it "likely" gets you lynched means you think it gets you lynched, otherwise the statement is entirely noncommital and useless - there's a chance of the opposite happening, and my response says nothing of the opposite.

How can I pass that up! Hey! Everyone! I'm as scummy as the come! I'm a real toaster here! Lynch me! I'm here! Lynch me now! Come on guys, try to go purging!
....I...wait...what?
votebrig Damnation
Posted July 10, 2018
Well it seems the cyst was really a malignant tumor on her ovary. The doctor removed the tumor and ovary and said the good news is that the type of cancer it is has an 85-90% chance of being cured. They will not do anything else until after the baby is born. They are also keeping her at the hospital for a couple of days to monitor her and the baby (both are doing great right now).

I will still be ok to play and don’t think a sub will be necessary for me, if that changes I will let the mod know.

I’ve tried to catch up and I see Damnation and bookwyrm are arguing now, I see Damnation’s posts as a town player who’s scum hunting. As for bookwyrm I’m not sure why he felt the need to defend ZFR, I’m pretty sure ZFR can defend himself and that reflects poorly on bookwyrm IMO.

Nothing has really changed though in me moving my vote.


I will be headed back to the hospital in the morning (it’s a 2 hour drive there) and will try to stay caught up and post if I need to.


@Vitek, I’m am 46 years old ;-)
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General discussionGOG Mafia Reboot: Battlestar GOGlactica(1581 posts)(1581 posts)
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