Oh dear lord. I hadn't realised how much I hate day 1...!

Before I go any further, reads:
1. SirPrimalform -- Mildly Scummy, for reasons in post 103
2. ZFR -- Mildly Scummy, for referencing previous games as proof of towniness
3. littlerabbit -- Not Sure. Seems to be trying to stay on everyone's good side, contributes to discussion without advancing it very much.
4. bler144 -- Not Sure. I pounced to start a bit of something but I'm not sure anything came of it.
5. flubbucket -- Not Sure - has a reputation to maintain..! The thing is that I don't think that lynching flub for the avatar would leave a significant enough wagon. If this detail starts to corollate with behaviour later I'd be up for it, but... right now I don't think it's a sensible lynch.
6. JoeSapphire -- Leaning Town - was the first to list reads and keeps asking particular and probing questions.
7. HypersomniacLive -- Not Sure, I feel like for lack of data. I know they have been posting but I don't feel like I have gleaned much from it.
8. elebutterfly --
9. Damnation -- Not Sure, for lack of data.
10. trentonlf -- Not Sure. seemed a little defensive re my question but that's not significant enough by itself, it was a pretty meta question.
11. Bookwyrm627 -- Leaning Scum - very pro-brig whereas pretty much all the evidence suggests it's a lousy move on D1.
12. cristigale -- Not Sure - went out of her way to get the flub case, as impressive as it was.
13. Vitek -- Not Sure.

Thanks for the clarification.

Well.. that's why I put "legitimate" in quotation marks - for you a facile reason is more legitimate than a RNG vote, right? And yes we may end up disagreeing on everything but I'm going to

unvote bler114

on the basis of your next few posts.

Joe's point of contention in 57 was:
and I was implying that your post 25 was also a composed argument - therefore my question was why does Joe find it suspicious from me and not from you. I don't know that he actually answered, now that I think of it..?

Except brigging doesn't involve a card flip... And of course we would lynch a player on Day 1????? Scummiest thing I've read so far. We need data. We need a dead body. Are you proposing brigging instead of lynching Today?

I was with you until that last sentence... if so, town would always win. I just don't think the proof of towniness based on behaviour in previous games is solid reasoning (and IMHO it feels like bad sportsmanship, but that's an argument for outside this thread that should not be pursued here.)

So... why are you voting ZFR?

PREPOST EDIT
I still don't understand why you'd refer to the previous game in the first place... bear in mind 6/13 of us (I think) don't have this option.

Can we have a votecount please, acting-captain?

The sentence you quoted was just a (non-serious) by-the-way addon that while most of you can reminisce previous old games, I can't since I haven't played them. It wasn't meant to be part of my reply to trent.

Certainly.

Lynch:

ZFR - 4 (JoeSapphire, trentonlf, littlerabbit, SPF)
JoeSapphire - 3 (Damnation, Bookwyrm, ZFR)
flubbucket - 1 (cristigale)
cristigale - 1 (Vitek)
SPF - 1 (bler114)
Damnation - 1 (flubbucket)

Brig:

littlerabbit - 1 (Bookwyrm)
Bookwyrm - 1 (Vitek)

(With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes for a majority.)

Also, for anyone wondering, that was the "you forgot to give this vote count a name" vote count.

Hello Sunday, we have such marvelous plans together!
*gets caught up on mafia thread* Oh well, bye Sunday, guess we needed to cancel our plans!
Seriously, you guys talk a frakload, even considering there was talk of "weekend slump" - was extension really necessary then, and was the request for extension a scumplot?

Suspect me all you want, my point wasn't to defend flubbucket or anything of the sort, but to imply that I find the argument vague and weak. The mentioning of toaster is simply because I find the lack of refering to toasters as toasters disturbing. Watch some BSG, people!
Looking to build a case against me for agreeing with you, eh?

Which literally is not the case - read the rules. The brigged player cannot perform the NK, sure, but why wouldn't the other toasters be capable of doing so? If there is 1 toaster left, brigging them ends the game at nightfall. If there are two left, the other toaster merely performs the NK. Attempting to shift blame in the way you suggest either belies a more advanced knowledge of the setup, or a rather strange and convoluted strategy by toasters that would grant them a longer-than-necessary game?

I remember this practice from way back when, and back then I also thought of it as a fruitless exercise. You list your scum reads, and everyone can see you think someone scum or town, and that's that. No argumentation, nothing. I'm not going to bother making a long list with people I have reads on, because to me it isn't how I like to analyse people in this game. If my reads are not shining through what I write and whom I respond to, then you're likely not reading my posts thoroughly enough - if it indeed is a read I'm even willing to share.

Of course I'm voting for you! Plus, I haven't found a reason yet to unvote you...

That's an awfully specific prediction. Are you jealous that you got the mafia vanilla while your scumbuddies got shiny powers?

It's longer than 4 years for me I'm pretty sure, but no, I have not played or observed forum mafia since. I've played various social deduction board games, such as Werewolf and The Resistance, and living in Denmark would largely prohibit playing with the UK'ers on any sort of regular basis.

You Joe. Always you.

While I strongly agree with you on your points about using the brig mechanism, this question is not the right one to ask, I think - since the opposite really has largely the same answer: what do we learn if we get it right?
The real answer to using the brig is as you say: strategy.

Sorry to make you chuckle, I assure you it was never my intention. And who I find scum or not scum is explained in my reply to Joe's post on the same matter - my vote on him was RVS, and still in part is, but not completely.

This is my exact stance on it as well, and I will argue that I find anyone refering to their behaviour in past games as highly scummy. I understand trent's argument of his reference, but it is still a bit scummy, though not nearly as much as ZFR's.
In essence, information of playstyles from previous games will either A) be disregarded as the game progresses, or B) lead to unsubstantial dossiers.
Simply put, people and their playstyles evolve. Player A might play in two consecutive games, but his playstyle should evolve, even if slightly. We experience and we learn from that, if our playstyles remain the exact same, then we have not learned anything from our previous game, even if only weeks apart.
Thusly, I think using it as a foundation for scumreading is largely unfounded, or scummy in itself - you're attempting to disregard anything the given person has learnt, claiming that experience is static. It's far too much WIFOM to be worth much.

Not entirely surprised: Lynch all lurkers and all that. I'm sorry for my absence though, IRL doesn't allow me as much time as I would want to allocate to this. And this weekend was busy enough for me, but clearly not for most of you!

You didn't, really, bler did, and he wrote the lengthiest ones too!

What happened to me leaning scum? Suddenly you do not have enough data to have a read on me, but previously you thought I leaned scum? I honestly find that very curious.

Back from work - will catch up

I agree with every word you said there.

True story - that was my first game. I spent the whole game thinking he just really liked the confederate flag and all it connoted.

Her play has adapted since she started playing more off-site. Historically (back when I played here) she played much closer to the chest regardless of alignment.

I guess I'm viewing her argument in the general category of "policy lynch." Not the best D1 lynch in terms of meaning, but...could be worse.

Personally I'm glad he's at least engaged and doing something....

But as to your question, her pushing anybody this early is newish to me, but having also dabbled off-site, watching Champs, etc., I don't tend to view it as alignment indicative either way for her. Will have to go back and re-read her though - curious what else is happening in game, from her POV besides this one bright shiny object.

But I don't have concerns about her fascination with said shiny object in its own right.


Oh no, he was definitely Town Arsonist. We knew that for sure early on because the 2 of the early flips were JMich's "Town bodyguard of arsonist" and Dedo's mafia firefighter. Ergo, town arsonist - voila!

Seems you understand fine. :) Being brigged cuts a Cylon player out of their chat for the duration.

(And, for the avoidance of doubt, there is no Cylon day chat. I don't believe in it, probably because of real life games.)

((Also, since everyone seems to be interested in who's played with who, I've done Mafia games with the following: Damnation, SPF, Vitek, had elebutterfly as a mod, and possibly played with JoeSapphire?))

(((Me?)))

1. I generally try and be friendly to everyone. Except yogs. Though I will also inevitably end up also insulting someone or losing my mind and yelling at someone. Thankfully HiJack isn't playing.

Number of things happening there in general, but specific to you in this scenario, a la Ele's post (re flubwagon), the point isn't just WHOM gets lynched, but WHY the wagon builds. If town!you gets lynched just for doing newbie things, then we're stuck with nothing to go off D2. Scum can either easily justify being on or off that wagon.

But sure, D1 you should suspect whatever floats your boat b/c the only data you have (presumably regardless of alignment since no N0 indicated, and no day chat confirmed) is post#1 and your PM, and if you want to make a case on me based on winkys, go for it. Note that if you are scum and I'm friendly to someone else you can flip it around and suggest I'm coaching them.

2. Only to a point. Say scum!Joe and scum!bler. Joe has 3 votes. Aside from trying to mimic a town mindset, in that scenario I would also have to juggle how much to distract from or attack the wagon (a claim I'm at least slightly vulnerable to if he later flips scum not just in D1) to save a buddy for strategic or numerical considerations, or whether to bus him for town cred. So I think you're still oversimplifying, but all in all that's a better explanation from you.

I'm also not sure why you hate lists so much - just b/c of one experience where someone got tunneled/distracted by their list it's ultimately just a tool like anything else and can be used well or poorly. But that's NAI.

Outside of some pretty specific cases, I disagree with your logic on one is proven true/false. There are plenty of times that's not true. Two players who look like they can't be W/W still could be - what we typically mean is that, relative to other possibilities, it's unlikely. Not that it's certain. Yogs in particular was wont to do things that defied all semblance of common strategy, but it worked for him...at least until everyone got to the point of concluding that nothing he did would ever clear him because there was always an example of something outlandish he had actually done as scum that was even more unlikely.

3. So...other than me being too friendly, what other dynamics do you see happening around the table?

On the whole I quite liked this post on first read, though two things jumped out:

1) I don't recall him saying anything of the sort. Where did this notion come from, or is it just shade throwin' time?

2) Your second proposition assumes town plays well, that the game is balanced, etc. In my experience the most common reason town loses is inactivity/poor play. Or smurfs putting town in a position to win and then frakking it up. Every. Single. Time.

Well, ok, except twice I didn't. But those early ones stung.

But normally it is dead around here. Pretty different lineup than we're used to probably part of the reason (which is what compelled vitek to play, and that guy just won't stop yakking). And someone asked why I wasn't taking the weekend quietly - in my current job I'm only able to play at all evenings/weekends now.


I do find it a bit interesting a. that you didn't mention me as scummy given that I probably talk about historical games more than anyone else (though to be fair, I talk about pretty much everything more than anyone else), and b. that, unless I'm missing something, at least part of your read on JoeS is meta, isn't it? Given that I'm town-reading him, I wonder if you'd care to try and enlighten/persuade me on what it is you think I'm not seeing there?

Tempted to move you out of the POE though.


It's moderately common in the U.S., possibly a regionalism. It's not the word I use, but as soon as she said it I knew what she meant by it, and don't think it's accidental. Which flub has basically confirmed anyway when he said "clever girl", making the question a bit moot, no?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr-Lj9TnJOE


My mirkins are the smurfiest.


Huh. I missed this on first pass. I don't know whether to make a joke about pottoasters calling kettles black, or just run around the room picking up the pieces of my head for reassemblage.

So...we should like, start prioritizing voting lurkers you think?


I'd break this up into multi-posts on any other site, but don't seem to be a lot of bumps all of a sudden.


Did I tell you the story about the orc bodyguard?


If flub is a cylon he should have gone withMilton as his avatar.

Hm. No, I don't think so. Is this one of those stories where you kind of had to be there?

Yeah, probably.

Man, I really wish you had been there.

Me too, man, me too. I think it would have been a blast.

Two short things before I go to bed.

SPF jumped on the ZFR train a bit soon for me with no real reasoning.

@ele because ZFR said that they don't think people can be 75% sure x is scum, which is just wrong. Yes, scum/not scum is usually an absolute value, BUT the amount of suspicion one has is by definition a graded spectrum. Therefore, he is both wrong and being unhelpful by not encouraging suspicion share. By this s am e argument, Joe is looking Town to me.

Damnation has 07 posts.
SirPrimalform has 12 posts.
ZFR has 18 posts.

And for the record flubbucket has 16 (now 17).

Best of luck reassembling your head, sassmaster. =p