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Telika: Also :

In mafia jargon, "town", "townies", etc, are the players from the team who don't know who belongs to which team. And "mafia", "scum", etc, are the players from the team who know who belongs to which team.

So "town" players try to find out who make the honest arguments (trying to vote to lynch "mafia" players), and "mafia" players are the ones who try to mislead "town" players with false arguments, trying to direct the votes towards "town" players.
thanks I understand better now
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FrostburnPhoenix: Catv is being unusual however.
You know, I was anticipating that you might try making a "OMG! Lynch Catventurer" comment about me posting differently yesterday, so I took a picture of my router yesterday.

Here's what I was dealing with most of the time. It was going up and down and up and down all day.
* Unedited image here: https://imgur.com/56aCq9i.JPG
* Cropped to fit on GOG version attached to this post so that you can't say that I modified the unedited image after uploading.

Everyone can see for themselves that:
1. The connectivity issues I was having were no lie.
2. Since my Internet is working again, I'm already back to posting as I normally do.
3. Let's all assume that I scare Frosty because he can't handle talking to girls.
Edit by way of posting

Attached image was slightly too big and didn't actually get upload. (User Error on my part.)
Here is is - proof the router/modem was down.
Attachments:
router.jpg (407 Kb)
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FrostburnPhoenix: Catv is being unusual however.
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Catventurer: You know, I was anticipating that you might try making a "OMG! Lynch Catventurer" comment about me posting differently yesterday, so I took a picture of my router yesterday.
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PookaMustard: - Real Life issues and situations should and will always take priority over what happens in the game. If a player presents a real life issue as a reason on why they need a bit more time or are temporarily unavailable to partake normally in the game that reason should be accepted and respected by everyone else (including the mod). Everyone should always treat real life problems/situations in a gentlemanly manner and never try to make accusations or gain leverage in the game based on that. If these issues become too overwhelming the incapacitated player should inform their mod and ask for a replacement as soon as possible or if they are unable to do so the mod should take steps in finding a replacement for them. Everyone should be playing the game for fun and treat each other with the necessary respect. Therefore we shall always assume that every real life reason for inefficient participation in the game is 100% real and has to be taken as such. We shall also count on everyone playing the game to show proper respect and sportsmanship to their fellow players and the mod by never abusing this "free pass". If someone is caught taking advantage of everyone's good will they will be immediately allowed to find another place to play forum mafia.
You shouldn't have to do that.

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Catventurer: Everyone can see for themselves that:
1. The connectivity issues I was having were no lie.
2. Since my Internet is working again, I'm already back to posting as I normally do.
3. Let's all assume that I scare Frosty because he can't handle talking to girls.
1. Of course.
2. Good.
3. You don't scare me. Is this because I never accepted your friend request? You and dedo don't s-scare me bakas!
Dedo?
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FrostburnPhoenix: That said Catv feels slightly off but just slightly
As of post #45 I have felt so too.

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Lifthrasil: But then of course Frostburn looks a bit over-eager in this too. It is a very flimsy reason to base a vote on this early, based merely on a random vote accompanied by a playful remark.
Idk, I'd say that's on par with his playstyle, though I will be the first to say that it more often than not lead to terrible results.

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supplementscene: Well okay then, why was it serious? What are you inklings into Joe's very limited behaviour so early on?
Well, he's Joe for one. But just to straighten this our, okay? You understand that the game Dishonored is called Dishonored and not Dishonoured, yes? Say it after me, we don't need no French sounding spellings in our English, yes?

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supplementscene: I can agree Frostburns posts have been a little none sensical but I don't think that is necessarily reflective of his alignment
I think it's fair to say that you've hit the jackpot. He's still a decent lynch option if it's early in the game, we lack leads, and he's just wreaking havoc in our detective process.

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supplementscene: *injury*
I wish you a fast recovery!

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FrostburnPhoenix: What did I do?
YOU'RE JUST BEING YOU!

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FrostburnPhoenix: Firstly it wasn't suspicious because buck couldn't fight back but because it could keep the spotlight off Joe.
It's just RVS. It's not that it's impossible, it's just that it's kind of a stretch.

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FrostburnPhoenix: Like I mentioned already: his vote on Buck is dead interaction.
If I am not mistaken, there is an entire subset of players that argue RVS is always just that in the endless semantic and philosophical debates of the Mafia community. That doesn't make it so, at least not for those of the opposing view.

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Telika: Wish to develop?
No, sir. I've had my fill of C++ and Python and only wish to stick to finance and law. Maybe even philosophy if we're having beers!

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Catventurer: Once again, I find myself discussing you and nobody else. I'm half convinced that you're intentionally doing it just to have my attention all for yourself.
You didn't even say hi back, so go figure!

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csanjuro: so can I vote anyone?
Yes, you can! But don't vote me!

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dedoporno: Technically - yes. Still, it's preferable that it's someone you find suspicious and you can explain why that is.
Pffft. Technicalities. When have these ever mattered in our corner of the world?

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dedoporno: "The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules..."
To piggy back on the joke above and our neck of the woods, I know a few in the legal profession who'd go berserk at that affirmation.

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Atlo: but why does he follow up with questioning everything ?
Cause he's Joe.

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Atlo: [I just realised I was still in the wrong tab and Frostburn changed his vote to Catventurer... doesn't matter. My point still stands.]
Objection, your honor!

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Lifthrasil: the question is only, did Joe write it for that purpose or did he rather make a harmless joke?
To be... or not to be?

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FrostburnPhoenix: Did I start the game too strong? I Claim mafia one-shot yandere.

Also that is not Makise Kurisu.
Ah, phuck. The Japanese festival has once again been zerged by weebs.

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Lifthrasil: Therefore, I don't think that Frost's reaction was overeager, even though I don't share the same impression about Joe. In other words, Joe is NAI, Frost looks slightly towny to me, since it appears to me as a case of genuine scum hunting and not as artificial, pretended scum hunting.
Spaghetti at the wall.

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Lifthrasil: This, however, is a really bad move. We had 'joke' claims of being Mafia in the past. It is always disruptive to the game and never helps Town. Either your 'claim' is true and you are scum, or your 'claim' was a lie and lying makes your anti-town too. Maybe your claim was intended as joke, but even then it is anti-town, because claims are too serious to joke around with.
I'm starting to understand that thing they say about German humor.

I should make a poll about humor and pit British humor versus German humor but not actually tell people what they're voting for.

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FrostburnPhoenix: I Was returning to RVS because I realized it was a bad idea to break out of RVS so soon.
Now this... THIS... this is a funny joke.

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Catventurer: Once again, you're acting like the MVP for team mafia regardless of whatever your alignment actually is.
There's no need for such words. We're all friends here. And, well, if he is indeed mafia, being the mafia MVP sounds like he's doing a good job. Nonetheless, I'm not quite sure about that.

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FrostburnPhoenix: I'm rather maladapted right now, sorry.
Eh, happens. I wouldn't sweat it.

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FrostburnPhoenix: I Would almost consider this a better tutorial if Pooka actually gave the mafia daychat.
Now you're just imploring to be voted.

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Telika: (Actually I don't even know how much we're allowed to check a player's posts from older threads, in a mafia game, of if it's considered too meta-gamey.)
This forum eats peanut butter and meta for breakfast.

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dedoporno: Does this make sense to anyone else but me?
I get you. I thought it curious as well.

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FrostburnPhoenix: Ok, they do have daychat. Thank you.
Ah, phuck, they do? I thought they were going to be just run-of-the-mill as they always are, but then I totally forgot pooka is a daychat fan.

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Telika: ~35 minutes since my last post. Let's hope it suffices. :-/
You only need 10 minutes. They have good clocks in Switzerland, so I take you'll be exact next time, yes?

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Telika: Time is getting weird.
Damn... if the Swiss have issues with it, the rest of us are just massively phucked.

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Catventurer: My impression is that the portion of post #47 where Lifthrasil is replying to Csanjuro is 100% alignment neutral. Lift could be town or mafia. Csanjuro could be town or mafia. I really do believe that Lift (or anyone else) answering a newbie question would respond the same with no regards to their own alignment and without worrying about a newbie's alignment. The goal is to help the person adapt to how mafia is played here. I probably should disclose that I do have a habit of taking all answers to newbie questions at face value as I see no value of being deceptive in these situations. 1) It doesn't help anyone. 2) Everyone in the thread can see what everyone else posts.
I think the question here is about the presentation and not the content.
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Catventurer: Once again, I find myself discussing you and nobody else. I'm half convinced that you're intentionally doing it just to have my attention all for yourself.
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Ambiti0nZ: You didn't even say hi back, so go figure!
I'm really sorry, Azzy. I must have missed your hello. Please forgive me?

I also had some technical difficulties with my Internet and really should do some back reading tomorrow while having breakfast.


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Catventurer: My impression is that the portion of post #47 where Lifthrasil is replying to Csanjuro is 100% alignment neutral. Lift could be town or mafia. Csanjuro could be town or mafia. I really do believe that Lift (or anyone else) answering a newbie question would respond the same with no regards to their own alignment and without worrying about a newbie's alignment. The goal is to help the person adapt to how mafia is played here. I probably should disclose that I do have a habit of taking all answers to newbie questions at face value as I see no value of being deceptive in these situations. 1) It doesn't help anyone. 2) Everyone in the thread can see what everyone else posts.
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Ambiti0nZ: I think the question here is about the presentation and not the content.
I've also answered that twice and now three times if I include this post when I say that I don't know if there's any deviation.

1. Lift was the moderator for my first game here (LucasArts.) Masters of the Universe was my second. If you count the roulette game, this is only my fourth. I haven't seen him in newbie helper mode across a ton of threads.

2. What I do know though is that I'm not seeing anyone other than Telika questioning post #47. I mean it doesn't seem to be raising any alarms with Catte, Scene, or Dedo for example. Do you see anything suspicious about post #47?
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dedoporno: also AZ
Certified gangster. Too bad this is a game about school girls though.

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Lifthrasil: I probably would have written the same if I were scum and probably have writtin similar advice to new players in past games even, independent of whether I was scum or town. Helping a new player is just common decency.
Of course you'd say that! What credibility do you think this has? Nonetheless, I still believe you.

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supplementscene: I see it as a coping mechanism.
Life really is brutal.

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supplementscene: Lift saying we should lynch all liars seems a bit over simplistic if someone is joking. Shouldn't we lynch the most Scummy player? Lift Slight Lean Scum aligned
Lift is so on par for the course with this behavior that it isn't even funny. If nothing else he's one of the most consistent players I've played with.

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FrostburnPhoenix: I Genuinely didn't know, but I don't think this a reason to clear me is all.
Tis a reasonable argument. Not one that warrants a clear. Nonetheless, you've earned some clear points.

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FrostburnPhoenix: I Read some of them but skipped the rest because they looked the same as normal. Reading it more now I noticed bastard elements aren't forbidden this game, is that right? Should I assume there probably aren't any anyways?
I have yet to read them.

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Lifthrasil: Maybe you want to check what I wrote in the last 50 games or so about this topic?
Oh, boy! Forum mafia literature! As if we needed drier content than the law!

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Atlo: [you should go look for a lucky four-leaf clover in the meadows.]
I genuinely chuckled. What a wonderful sentence!

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Telika: This is a pretty dishonest read, for three reasons. Firstly, you once more miss the point that I was making : not that help was provided, but that help was phrased as if Csanjuro was certified town (without stressing to them what the difference of roles entail), which could have different reasons (and those who understood my question have addressed these). Secondly because if some people didn't keep wrongly re-phrasing my question as "why would a townie even help out a potential mafioso" I wouldn't have to keep re-clarifying the same thing (the first point above) again and again, re-clarifications which you call "harping". And thirdly, because my point isn't mud-slinging, it's a concrete question that was asking for a concrete answer, that would clear the point once and for all (ie: does Lifth's help in other games, where he was town, also address newcomers in a way that sound like they're certified townies). Clear, verifiable questions do not help the mafia. At all.
Feisty.

But I concur.

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Telika: Ambitionz
Who?

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Telika: I'd even say, it's less about being factually right or wrong, but more about the reasons we give for our impressions. Being correct is a bit less important than being sincere and honest. Or sounding so.
Idk bout any of that. If that was true, Frosty would've wrecked havoc in two previous games.


Alright! I'm caught up to my second post. Sadly, I must go to bed now. It's past 1 AM and I must wake up at 7 AM for more deal reviewing during the day, among many other things. I shall return tomorrow and continue from where I left off. So long, dear goglodytes!
Here's a bump post in case you need it. I'm off to bed.
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FrostburnPhoenix: They're the same thing. Making posts that look helpful but don't actually help that much. I Might be reading it wrong and this is just your usual playstyle. I Wasn't really attuned to this until recently.
For your information they are not the same thing but I now understand your point of view, at least. And yes, this is how I play during the early game which shouldn't really stop you voting me if you think you're onto something as my play doesn't really change that much as either alignment.


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supplementscene: Actually I think this one is worth exploring. Dedo has made comments but not taken any firm positions. To me it doesn't look like he's trying to solve the game.

What do players who've played with Dedo think about this??? @Lift @joe @telika and anyone else? I've played a little with him but don't remember much
As you have said yourself a lot of people aren't in a rush and a few of them are simply absent. I don't know about others but I usually like to have a wider view on things which requires for everyone to have had a valid entrance (not just "Sorry guys, life is life, I'll be with you shortly").

I'll notice that you took Frostburn's "lead" as a motivation to single me out of everyone who "shouldn't be rewarded", though.


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Lifthrasil: The only deviation was, that he needed an explanation of my thoughts. Usually he is able to read them. ;-) (in other words, we often think alike)
There is a reason for that. When it comes to you I'm biased and I can't help it exactly because we tend to see things in a similar manner. A few games ago I managed to see through your scum play and since then I'm sort of going out of my way to try and crack your "code" in a more consistent way rather than just brush everything that sounds sensible off right away. Sorry not sorry :)


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my name is anime catte: I may have done, but I don't remember anything that would be helpful in terms of meta.
I see. Oh well. Thanks anyway.


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Atlo: This is probably just me being new, but I don't really see how lynching an innocent townie would result in anything useful.
There are a bunch of posts I'm still going through but since I'm writing responses as I read I'll shortly answer this anyway. It's quite normal for new players to think lynching a Townie on D1 is the worst possible outcome since it decreases our numbers. While this is technically correct, there is always the chance we chose correctly but even if we didn't a mislynch is still better than No Lynch as it trades a Townie's life for information that can be worked with on the next Day. Information about who started the wagon, who backed it up and when, who didn't and why not and so on. All this applies in a different way depending on the lynch result (Town, Mafia, Netural, etc.) but it's still almost always more useful than not having anything. If we don't lynch at all D2 is essentially the same as D1 with the only difference that the scum have likely killed someone during the Night and have done so for free. I know you haven't said you prefer No Lynch for the sake of a potential Townie loss but it's easy to go in that direction if one is more concerned about making a mistake than not doing anything at all. Especially for a new player.


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Catventurer: I think it just threw me off.
I see, thanks.


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csanjuro: what means "I'm TOWN"?
It first and foremost means Pooka's PM to you says so, among other things, in a very clear and obvious way. Semantically it means that you're one of the good girls. Sooooo, are you?

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csanjuro: oh I see thanks for the answer
Actually I'll take a step back and ask another question - you have read your PM from Pooka and you are aware which team you're playing for and what your team's goal in the game is?


I still have a few more posts to go through but they aren't too short and I'm entering a meeting. I'll be back in about 2 hours with the rest and a most likely some reads and a vote.
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Catventurer: The connectivity issues I was having were no lie.
No one thought it was? RL should and will always take precedence over the game.


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FrostburnPhoenix: You shouldn't have to do that.
+1

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FrostburnPhoenix: You and dedo don't s-scare me bakas!
You may reconsider after you see me standing in the shadows in the corner of your room tonight. You know how you can always tell when someone is watching you. Scared now?


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csanjuro: Dedo?
You rang?


Right. Finally caught up. Some reads, for the lack of a better word, in order of players list so I don't miss anyone:

Catte - As noted a few times before Catte appears to have more active and engaged D1s when he's scum while being more laid back and inactive as Town. Obviously such meta perception can be abused but I don't really see Catte as one to do so. Not of great interest currently.

FrostburnPhoenix - I share the same impression others have voiced already - from what I've seen from Frostburn's previous games he's usually active and invested but somehow manages to make himself look worse as Town than the actual scum hiding around. That said, I don't really think he's overstepped that much this time, at least not so far and not to the point where the flak he got by some is really justified. I'm not impressed by his re-stated vote on me but I don't necessarily think is malicious by intent, either. Pretty neutral to me.

Catventurer - First and most loud person to cut Frostburn slack based on past games which I find intriguing. CatV then backtracked and sort of piggy-backed on Lift's and Telika's votes to make a wagon of 3. I don't like that.

Lifthrasil - Not a lot out of what I've come to expect from Lift of D1. I thought I caught a slight glimpse of scum Lift testing the ground for a cheap case against Joe but I lost it. It's likely nothing but I always have a hard time with Lift as we tend to have similar thought processes very often even when anti-aligned. Middling.

supplementscene - I followed scene closely last game when I was modding and he was scum in not-ideal circumstances and it stuck with me how he said that he's sort of a liability to the scum team as he tends to get booted first as whatever alignment. Then he proceeded to overplay his hand after doing a pretty decent job staying hidden and in the good graces of the Town and got booted first. Maybe he's learned as doing an even better job now, good for him. I don't see anything outstanding other than the fact the he chose to follow Frostburn's inital push at me and singled me out from a list of people scene considers inactive. Maybe something, maybe nothing. I like to think it's the latter but we'll see. Middling.

JoeSapphire - Proper AWOL. Normally I'd cut Joe slack when he's less active as he's a handsome kind man who always goes the extra mile if he plays [knowingly] with someone else. The thing is he is literally gone from the game to a point where it's likely something serious is going on IRL and he's not inactive because isn't that concerned about his teammates but because of something outside of the game. He is also being best analyised while present and participating because of his playstyle which is not doable right now. I hope he's well and comes back to m.. us.

Telika - I only know Telika from that one time so many years ago when I was looking for the name of a very old game I couldn't remember from my childhood and he came by and told me the name. Thanks for that, even though I have forgotten again since. My own impression is that Telika has been Lift on steroids so far. Appears to have some convictions about the way the game should be played and is readily pursuing those. I like to think such approach to the game comes from a Town mindset and I like to see more of that player during the game. Neutral because I don't know better but I like to think it's Town behaviour.

Ambiti0nZ - Has been non-present most of the game, likely because of IRL reasons. Has appeared recently with a few bits and pieces here and there. Nothing outstanding, mostly fluff. Certified gangster and third most handsome man in the game. Most likely scum. Lynch and you can't go wrong. 60% of the time it works every time. Joking aside, pretty basic and neutral stuff. Could be scum hiding, could be Town not doing a whole lot.

dedoporno - Super-Town, obviously, but some of you don't know that just yet.

Atlo - If Atlo wasn't a new player my vote would be parked there. To quote their own words: "Feels off...". Cammora, man.

csanjuro - Looks fairly lost in a game where the scum have a day-chat. If scum, their buddies have done a good job tutoring csanjuro on milking that.

bucktooth - He feels a little bit wishy-washy and I've seen similar behaviour when we were scum together. I'm not sure I recognize the same patterns but back then I looked at his play with different eyes so maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees.


First of all - I'd vote for pretty much anyone if I have to avoid NL (No-Lynch).

As far as preference goes the people I'm more willing to vote are CatV, buck and AZ, I guess. No particular order. Maybe that order.

I don't feel the urge to vote for Catte, Frostburn, Lift, Scene and Telika.

Joe is being a problem on mechanical level and he shouldn't be voted out but handled in another way by the mod if he doesn't appear soon. If he does appear he'll receive preferential, borderline gentle, POSSIBLY even loverlike treatment. By me.

I won't vote for csanjuro and Atlo because they're new but if Atlo wasn't he'd be my top D1 choice.

Time is ticking away and we should be getting things in going right about now. So


vote Catventurer
@Atlo: about to lynch or not to lynch on D1: it is a common misconception by new players, that a mis-lynch on D1 is a bad thing. Of course, lynching scum is what we try to do and accidentally lynching Town is worse than if we manage to lynch Scum. However, not lynching at all on D1 is even worse than mis-lynching Town.

The reason is: Day 1 is the most difficult Day. We don't have any solid information and not much to interpret. If we don't lynch, we start Day 2 with basically the same, low amount of information. However, if we lynch, we get one proven alignment. As soon as someone dies, their alignment and role is revealed. and then we can analyze who voted for them and why. And who was unwilling to vote for them. And who hopped on or off the vote train. This is analysis that can lead to victory for town.

Short version: it's just experience. No-lynch on the first Day leads to chaos on Day 2. Scum usually is happy with a No-lynch on D1.

Therefore: try to lynch someone, but not arbitrarily. Give reasons for your votes that can be analyze the next day. On D1 these reasons are often not very solid, but it is important to talk about them.


@Telika: this is again basic tutorial mode. If you want, you can check that in past games. This very explanation appears in most games that contain new players back to when I was new myself and was on the other side of this discussion.

About my vote: my impression of Frost didn't really change. So I leave my vote where it is.

@dedo: I see. With that explanation in mind it is reasonable that you question me instead of just reading my mind.
We have a bit over 1 RL day until the end of the Day.

@catte, I was looking at the votes/wagons and I noticed that you have made a single RVS vote in your very first post of the game which still stands. Is that intentional? If yes, why? If not, what are your thoughts?
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bucktoothgamer: The sudden LAMIST review of dedo followed by the vote...then unvote a few hours later smells of trying to start wagons to see what would stick.
How would you naturally get that impression when dedo was the only one who responded before I changed my vote?

Unvote

Vote bucktoothgamer
By now pretty much everyone has explained to me that lynching anyone is preferable to a no-lynch.

Alrighty then... I'm jumping onboard the bandwagon! Sorry Frosty.

Vote FrostburnPheonix

For the record, though - I don't think he's mafia. I just cannot imagine that one who is mafia would willingly draw such attention to themselves.

As a side note - I find it interesting that Catventurer, who has up until now, staunchly defended Frosties erratic and wacky behaviour, changed his Vote.

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csanjuro: Dedo?
Please, for the love of God, tell me you did manage to figure that one on your own out.

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dedoporno: if Atlo wasn't he'd be my top D1 choice.
Uhh... thanks ?