I didn't realize bucktoothgamer wasn't new. I gave him a pass for being a new player paying enough attention over the name switch. Where new mafia have little need.

That said, I did an ISO and he certainly could fall into the "hiding in plain sight" category. In fact, I'll rank him ahead of both ZFR and HSL. ZFR I have as a mixed bag, something strikes me as off, but I can't pin it down but I can't see why as scum he would could keep himself in the middle of that mess. HSL is just not as involved.

So:
1) AmbitiOn
2) Babark
3) Bucktoothgamer

For you newer players. Here's what I look for. I'm looking for scum "pretending" to be Town which is what all scum must do. The most common way mafia hide are to make generic generally obvious Town posts (often following logic introduced by others) while staying out of controversy. I've seen some good players do it. They crack a lot of jokes; they acknowledge other's good insights (on those they know are actually Town). But what they don't usually do is become the primary force behind any mislynch.

There are two ways I've seen them go about it.
1) Some stay off the mislynch entirely. Often staying on some wagon that was never going to go anywhere or sticking with their RVS votes.
2) Others are quick to follow "good logic". This is where the "3rd vote is scum" idea comes from. I've heard it as 3-5. But this group want to jump on the final lynch wagon shortly after the player making the big push, but before they get forced to be the clinched vote. Unfortunately, what happens in most day 2's after a mislynch is people look for why. And the 2 players that get scrutinized hard are those who really pushed the wagon and those who cast the final vote. The first are those who often are Town who genuinely think they saw something lynch worthy and the latter who are voting because they want to avoid a no-lynch.

So, in short, "hiding in plain sight" are players who are generally lurking and/or following while feigning a level of activity.

-----

Another thing to look for are failed wagons. Especially later when you find out that failed vote wagon was scum. Experienced scum will often vote their scum buddies on day 1 to throw people off in later days. These early votes are often RVS, but sometimes they are over trivial (manufactured) issues that they know shouldn't go very far. So be careful. Don't clear people over such votes.

-----

Another thing that bugs me are the people that walk away because someone claims "vanilla town". Um, you do know that the best (and practically only safe) claim a scum can make is "vanilla town". Anything else runs the risk of duplicating roles and getting called on the unlikely chance of two cops (for example). That is a bad reason to clear someone. I don't get it. To me, it's a better reason to finish them off. If you had a good enough reason to get someone to the stage they made a claim, and it's "vanilla town", finish them. If you aren't voting them for other reasons, fine. But for those using that as a reason to change their vote? Makes me wonder if they jumped on their buddy's wagon and found a contrived excuse to jump off to save their buddy.

My post doesn't want to post. Is this due to the size?

That is an interesting point... which I will have to admit that I didn't consider.


I was just confirming that I was reading the acronym correctly - that HSL meant you, not some mafia term. That was just a clarification. I think I've mentioned that I can be bad with unfamiliar acronyms. If it was written as HSLive, for example, I wouldn't have needed it.

I've been referring to post numbers after a certain point. Since I cannot go back and edit where I did use a page number, I'm leaving the post as is because no editing even to fix something.

I think what I meant about babark being new is that the not new people are treating him as new and won't vote for him today so for all purposes, he's new.


Probably. Toss it in a text editor to cut it in half, post the first half wait at least ten minutes (or until someone posts) then post the other half.

I Read the guides that are linked to in the mafia admin thread as well as watched part of the previous game.
I Did skim the rules. (Also, I already found proof there can't be more than 3 scum.)

You do realize that you're only giving evidence of me not being mafia, since I am not correctly identify the number of mafia players with exact certainty. I only said that I think that four in a twelve person game would be excessive. I'm not stubborn and will admit that I'm wrong where I'm wrong. Help me believe that you are not mafia.

However it's about 5pm here, and my cat (as in the one with diabetes in remission) is going to want his dinner very soon. I'll be away for awhile again.

Since these list of questions being unanswered concerns you, let me respond:

1. If I compared the two complete opposites of who I found to be on the Town/Scum spectrum, me saying "I find [Townie McTownerson] more town than you, [Evil Scummonster]" would still be valid. As we all know at the time the ZFR-Frostburn debacle was really the only adversity we had to analayze at the time. So yes looking at ZFR and Fronstburn in a Vaccuum and picking between the two of them and placing a vote would be an action that I could have found very little fault in anyone doing.

2. Even if AmbitionZ was just presenting another side to the argument of "what do we do with someone who hints at a PR", its a take I wasnt a fan of. Their argument is basically "They're not going to do anything productive D1, so we should consider voting them out so Scum can't railroad them D2/3/4/etc." Why would'nt Town!AZ at least want to let PR Frostburn live into N1 and give them a chance to use their role. If theyre scum? we pull apart their lies as we question them on what actions they took during the night.

Why didn't I vote AZ right then and there? We had 3 to 4 days left in a 7 day D1 and I would have been vote 3 on a wagon, didn't want to build momentum too hastily if I was being overzealous in my read.

3. So I lied a bit here. I was referring to the previous game #75, where we mislynched Carradice(Town Watcher) and Pooka(Town Vanilla) back to back. So it was not two PRs in a row but my argument still stands with Carradice: we lost a PR the very first day without him even mentioning it, many players lamenting that they would have pulled their votes back if he claimed.

With having this previous knowledge, I would be doing Town a disservice by not mentioning it to try and avoid a similar fate. Wouldn't you agree?


My grasp of my native tongue has failed me to the point that in that moment I believed who's had two separate applications.

Catte, if you are wondering why you "get off light"...
Here's my ISO. (Note: There is a reason this is always written in all caps...because it came from a common non-Mafia related acronym else it would have stayed lowercase like "sus". Mafia Universe isn't always authoritative...)

Ignoring NAI, RVS and irrelevant posts such as the confirmed name change...

Post 48: Noticed Razza didn't bother to repost in bold. Some may find it meaningless, but it's a sign you are keeping an eye on the game looking for things that scum don't need to do.

Post 81: "I see." I took on face value. You read the explanation and accepted it. Just mentioning it again shows investigative activity.

Posts 95-100: Defending "Dash Rendar". While it could be easy comments for activity, you also could have let it go and help bury me.

Post 124: "Gut feeling says FBP is town, ZFR's part feels NAI." Makes sense. I think Frost is more likely Town than you and I can see the argument that ZFR is NAI. Maybe I'm influenced that it agrees with my general assessment.

Post 187: "I like the exchange between frost and ZFR. I don't feel like I can glean much from it at this point but it feels like useful activity." While I disagree and think it's mostly white noise and distracting, again, posting a take.

Post 219: "This AZFR conflict feels like town on town. I don't think I'd be willing to vote for either today." The most controversial post so far. While I can see how fights might be Town v Town.

Post 314: Various comments. Seems to be timely responses.

I get you might feel I might see you as coasting. I see how it could be interpreted that way. How do I explain it? When I do an ISO, I try to get into the head of the player. I'm looking at it from two perspectives. If I'm player X (using meta), as scum/as town is this consistent? I try to get a feel which is more likely and I arrived at a day 1 value slight town read, despite all the jokes and only light analysis primarily because those posts were timely, suggested you were reading the thread and thinking about these interactions whereas I find coasting scum to be a little less spot on. Comments just a little off point (if I can catch it). I didn't see anything that strikes me as scummy at all. For a Day 1 read, I didn't feel anything off. That said, if this same pattern continued on Day 2 with lots of jokes and only superficial comments, that would raise eyebrows. But for day 1 with nothing but random banter and all too many role claims...without anyone taken near a lynch...you didn't make my top 3. I also get the feel you are genuinely paying attention to the game which is a Town trait.

Greetings fellow goglodytes,

I have been away on family obligations today and now I have to deal with some packing for moving. I see that quite a lot of activity transpired today. I shall make some time to read, respond (where needed) and analyze all this new content within the next few hours. This is just a heads up to let you know I'm aware of today's plentiful activity.

I do agree that there has been miscommunication between us and things didn't necessarily translate well. I have dropped the subject as to what was miscommunicated since I am of view that delving into the semantics of sentence clusters within a context that lacks tonality and timeliness can get messy.

I shall refrain from making such comments then and I apologize. I don't mean them as harmful as much as how I view the interaction. Your continued attempts at squaring this are appreciated.

I see.

You know, I've exchanged nothing but pleasantries with dedo as well, maybe others too. I think you should take a closer look at him too!

I see your point. Agreed, I'll avoid that.

I'd just like to state that the way I read your argument involved a survivorship criteria of actually failing something, i.e. the cases where mafia got wrecked by doing the exact thing I was proposing as a viable scenario to be entertained by the masses here. It's a bit counterintuitive because the concept is called survivorship, but we're using a negative criteria to be exceeded for promotion. So when you said (paraphrased) "Nope. They tried this twice before and got a whole load of Duke Nukem up their arses" it basically signaled to me that these two cases survived your criteria for making that argument.

Alas, we're getting into the semantics of things. I do see your point about the cherry picking and agree overall with that conclusion.

I understand that this is what you meant. At the time, though, you have to understand you worded things in a way to signal much stronger opposition. The entire paragraph worked as a quasi-refutation because it simply started with a definitive negative statement and then followed up with two specific but limited examples.

Let's get into the sociology of it for a moment. The way you wrote these possibilities strongly suggests a course of action is better than the other simply because of how you ordered these possibilities and used imperative terms, such as "will have to". To me, this read that you were less inclined to entertain the scenario I brought up, hence why I brought it up, because you mandated that to mitigate this risk of interfering they *have to* do something about him during Nightfall. I can see that point, but only if there is a reasonable suspicion that Frost even has the kind of role that can interfere with them negatively by leaving him alone. I brought up this point once before. What if he is a bomb? Maybe not the best thing to claim on D1, but I don't want to digress here. As far as I saw it, the reasonable suspicion that Frost could interfere with them wasn't there, thus the imperative that they would have to deal with him during the Night, as opposed to maybe make a risky play that could put headwinds at their trajectory to victory if successful (framing him the next day) didn't necessarily make sense to me as an imperative. A viable option if they have assuring reasons to suspect that engaging with him won't negatively impact them, by maybe getting hit in the face by a bomb, or being spied on by tracker, or wasting a Night kill if Frost were to be protected by a bodyguard or doctor or if Frost was a bodyguard etc.
I hope you see my point. The number of possibilities here doesn't make for a solid case of why they would have to deal with him only during the night.

I wish you good healthy going forward and encouraging you in all your endeavors.

For posterity's sake on the point about HSL's activity: I don't have a recollection of HSL being much more active than this before. Maybe marginally, but it's not like life now is comparable with three years ago (for obvious reasons, I hope), so I am not a big fan of that activity argument here.

Are you implying the back and forth, arguments pro and con, and wagon analysis (not an interaction, but relevant) won't be helpful going forward? I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of the first day. Once more details and things are learned over the course of the following day, I'm sure these will be useful. I'm particularly referencing arguments with ZFR and Frost, but I've lightly interacted with others. No, my exchanges with LordCthulhu don't count.

Well, to each their own. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, ey?

Nah, fam. I barely had time for video games, let alone forums and socializing. It's been getting better recently, but it's not what it used to be. I'm just no longer a lowerclassman college student.

I have to say I'm a little disheartened that since my last post 5 hours ago, we have had but 3 posts (all from Ambiti0nZ). With the potential end of day window opening in less than 2 hours, I think we took too long. This looks as if it's going to be a no lynch or if somehow we get one, it will undoubtedly be "mafia approved" since it will take 7 Townies/friendly neutrals out of the likely 9 in game to have any chance at a real scum.

To Ambiti0n's credit, he is here discussing and we should look favorably upon those offering compromises trying to find an agreement.

I've been debating this next part half the day, and heck, there is no valor without at least a little bravery...

Should we reach end of day where neither Ambiti0n nor myself have been lynched, I ask this favor.

Please do not use any roles on Ambiti0n, there are a lot of other targets. Not that most powers would be worthwhile to use on a self-proclaimed vanilla town, but even so, please don't for this night only. I have my reasons. Yes cryptic. Maybe you will find this suspicious, I don't know. Invoking the spirit of Yogsloth, sometimes its worth flipping some tables.

Oy, I don't know what this is supposed to mean!

The implication that my magnificent mafia skills are not a bigger loss than some rando role used badly is grounds for a duel. Pick up your pistol, kind sir!

Shoot RWarehall

The implication that ZFR and I are scum buddies after that exchange is quite the stretch. If people had doubts about my scenario in which a town Frost could get framed, this one is at a whole higher magnitude of risk. Plus, it assumes a number of things, not least the means of coordination for such an audacious D1 play.

And I'm unsure baba ever justified his vote on me as serious, but I could be wrong here.

There isn't serious conversation between me and quite a few players. What are you on about? There ain't no rule that you gotta have a certain kind of interaction within a given number of posts.

For someone who claims to be a new player, you're pretty rigid with other new players who have signaled from the get go that they would like a more inclusive environment to acclimate to the game and participate more fully.

Good lord. By Zamolxe's beard, what is this consulting corporate speak? I'm getting triggered.

Still a better love story than Twilight.

Yes, I'm a bit of a boomer at heart.

possibly a few hours till deadline, let's get an elimination in toDay guys, we don't want to look like chumps in front of joppo.

it looks like RWarehall and Ambiti0nZ are lead wagon with 3 votes?
Hypersomniac live and Bucktoothgamer have 2 votes?

Sorry this isn't very sophisticated analysis - and my numbers might well be wrong, I'm off to work now, I'll try and get a mo to check again.

bahhh I don't really want to but

unvote HypersomniacLive

vote RWarehall

After a heated discussion, Elaine sits down, exhausted. Right into a thorny bush! YOWCH! PAPPAPISHU! That hurt! Best not do that again.

@detective_razza: DON'T edit any posts again! It's against the rules. Be aware that you have to wait for more than 10 minutes between consecutive posts - or request a bump in the admin thread - because otherwise GOG will merge your posts and they will look like they were merged.
Consider yourself warned. Another merger will bring 'bad consequences (TM)'. An intentional edit may even lead to modkills, because edits could potentially be used to skew the game. (e.g. attempting to remove slips before others notice them)[/]