Poppy had a point when she said that a few of us (certainly guilty as charged) overuse meta to the point where it becomes meaningless or exclusionary to new players who don't have that shared history to either revel or hide in.

But players generally do shift their play, both naturally over time, which undercuts meta, but in response to game circumstances such as alignment/roles. So you can't ignore it entirely either.

There's also the reality, which is a mesh of strategy/meta, that while D1 lynch can vary widely, more often than not the 1st NK falls within a fairly predictable pool unless maf want to intentially throw a curve, or suspect a PR, precisely because some players are more of a threat, or more easily mislynched than others.

lol - speaking of meta/history

though assuming I'm recalling the reference I don't know that ZFR will get that reference since he wasn't playing or observing back then.

I mean, the other time you played this card you were telling the truth, were you not?

So this time...you're...?

As for the HSL thing, I've got to run and am still not feeling the game enough to chase down quotes, but the short version is this:

HSL has observed, correctly, that whatever my suspicions I haven't made an actual play for him, and there's some history there.

He is presumably, then, taking the whole pf my initial posts and follow-up interaction to mean that the lump sum of things you are looking closely at (the strongly signalling, yada yada) is an indicator that I have an impression but nothing I feel strongly enough about to try and push or build a case on at this point.

Similar to your entry, consider the lump sum more in line with me staking a claim for post-game shame or glory (probably shame, since that's how it tends to go) more than me rallying other players to a cause based on a hunch.

I still think opening as he did would 100% make sense for neutral HSL, whether or not that's how it shakes out, and that (ignoring the scene kerfuffle) he's the sureset bet for hitting non-town, but not necessarily anti-town. And from that perspective I quite like his follow-up.

At this point I'm just stating that I believe it's true, not that it's actionable.

Make of it what you will. But perhaps look at your own opening and follow-up for a parallel.

have to run.

OK.

Vote JoeSapphire

I'm happy to go to SPF any time.

It is the late afternoon. Outside the light is already waning and one by one the lamps in the windows across the streed are lighted. Sudenly a sombre bell strikes, it's sound reverbrating through the hall in which you are imprisoned. The villagers are ringing the Decision Bell, announcing that it is time for you to make up your mind. Anyone not contributing to the witch hunt will be suspected of being a witch herself. When Night falls, they will drag one or two of you outside and hang her from the large village oak. Which can be seen through the barred windows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is now Phase 2.
Not voting counts as self-vote. If no absolute majority is reached, the Day will suddenly end in about 2 days (i.e. some time on Saturday) and the votes will be tallied.

Decision Bell Vote Count:

Scene 2 - bler (91), agent (127)
agent 1 - cristi (65)
Ixamyakxim 1 - self vote
ZFR 2 - P1na (19), SirP (122)
Joe 2 - flubb (129), ZFR (152)
P1na 2 - HSL (24), Joe (149)
bler 1 - scene (96)
cristi 1 - muddy (30)

If I missed anything or made an error, please let me know.

Game Off

@Bler144, if we've knocked heads and you're not enjoying the game and it genuinely is bothering your private life, then I'm disappointed in that. I hope we can all enjoy the game together and I've really enjoyed these games in quite a dark period of my own life. When I feel like someone is insulting my intelligence I will tend to use words such as 'condescending'/'arrogant'. Agent picked up on me using those words but you did use the phrase 'I'm not trying to be an asshole (but am)'.

It is quite possible I'm a bit of a liability as both my sides lost the last 2 games, down to mistakes in my game....although looking @ZFR he did screw Mafia last game

Anyway it doesn't mean I wish you a bad day or anything. I'm just calling it as I see it from my perspective. I'm not trying to attack you on a personal level because I disagree with you in the game. And perhaps some of my game strategies are wrong and incorrect. While maybe some aren't.

Anyway all the best and I hope you and you're family are feeling a bit better soon enough. I find garlic and chillis clear out stomach bugs

Is it bad that part of me wants it to stay this way just so you have to use random.org?

...


OK, I'll sign up for random.org-rehab.

Vote JoeSapphire

I really have no formed opinion on flubb or ZFR yet and Joe sketched me out by "knowing" the scum team... on Day One. I don't like people that "know" things that early - always smells to me like painting people as scummy.

I could *almost* go with supplementscene for the same thing... but I'm often sort of guilty of the "tunnelling on wild idea, this MUST BE IT" that he seems to be doing. Hey supplement, are you Hijack's brother or something?

Also, if people are only sorta sure of their vote, I'd be great to either push a wagon or get off.

I DO NOT LIKE all the 2 votes. Sure I pushed Joe to three for now which makes me feel a bit better. I might have missed it, but I saw in the vote count that I self voted so I'm guessing we're in Phase 2? I understand we will probably mislynch a townie Day One, I DO NOT WANT to accidentally lynch two.

Incidentally, didn't muddy go nolynch?

A brief few words on my no lynch vote since some people mentioned it and then a more thorough re-read.

I have precious few little inklings of where to vote right now and

1. didn't want to leave it on cristi
2. didn't want to commit to another player yet
3. didn't want to leave it open as that would be a vote on me

I voted no lynch not with any intention of anyone else following suit but to take back a (mostly) RVS vote. I think if the vote was more typical it would have just been an unvote.

Right now I need to take a closer look at the SPF, ZFR, Joe interactions

Ok yet more thorough reads still to come but some more thoughts.


Agent can you comment on your very strong town read of flub? Based on what? He hasn't posted much and the actual posts seem to be mostly jokes.

ZFR, thanks for the vote of confidence in multiple posts. Is this scum buddying a townie or scum pretending to coach a townie or am I just reading too much into things? Not sure.

Joe's unvote of SPF doesn't sit well with me either.

Vote ZFR


With EOD now on Saturday I'll be able to post more tonight and tomorrow but probably won't get in in time on Saturday.

[out of game]
Well, thank you for that.

FWIW, my record isn't so hot either, <random selection would suggest from setup weights. My problem is my understanding of strategy is strong, but my reads are so-so, and I'm a sucker for...a variety of things. So I'm not trying to say winning has to be the goal, and you should definitely have fun and play to your style. But there are still rules and conventions, and everyone has to be willing to hear feedback, and not just default to OMGUS, which seems to be where you are operating.

FWIW2, I rode ZFR fairly hard the last time I played for other basic newbyisms, when I should have stuck to my initial read on SPF. So...I don't feel great that it contributed to a loss. And yes, when I started pushing he likewise came with the OMGUS (T/T violence, ultimately) But on the plus side, after some initial antagonism, he actually heard me and some of it could be walked back/talked out - I don't know if he'd agree or not, but personally I think his game so far here is stronger for having absorbed a few punches and reconfigured. Ultimately, like with any communication, it's not just about what you're saying - it's how your audience hears it, right?
[game back in]



Uhhh...well for #1, this is a short D1 where a number of folks have been quiet or missing. For #2 in this setup, and given how the collective tends to play (we've ended in no lynch D1 quite a lot of late precisely due to thumb twiddling, though I know you haven't been around to witness that), while it's not my preferred, this is really not all that surprising for end of stage 1. And for #3 (going back to #1) this is your ...second post? I don't even have any read on you yet. So at least from this vantage point it feels a bit pot/kettle to be rebuking the masses for actions to-date.

But I do agree we need to congeal in some direction.

scene is still my preferred but it ain't happening, so I will move. I would say of the 3 current leading wagons, I'm probably voting Joe every time.

I'll re-read all three tonight and a few others if time allows and decide on...something.

ZFR re-read:

I didn't love the start, as previously mentioned, but from #70 on, he feels strong to me.

And not just because he town-read me. ;) His consensus doesn't feel like pocketing. He's poking and prodding in a fashion that feels solvey, inquisitive.

I particularly like this. Maybe worth revisiting IF muddy flips maf, but otherwise he's taking a position that opens him to criticism.

There is one post I quite don't like, but similar to his observation about mud it feels like a play choice I disagree with, but not one with any wolf!ZFR value.

Doesn't appear to have engaged with or addressed: cristi, flub, Ix

He's a solid town lean for me. No argument for voting him, arguments against. Not voting here.

lol - I missed that last part on first pass.

Not a lot to go on content wise, indeed. Probably the opposite of ZFR - I really loved the opening, but from there it's fairly soft.

The major strike would be not much that looks like scum-hunting/solving, but there's nothing at all that feels tonally off or wolfy.

Looks town leaning if I squint really hard? And as P1na noted, generally as mafia he comes right out and shoots himself in the foot, if a sample set of 1 is anything to go by. (that last is true but not serious)

No argument for. Eh argument against. flub is a good comparison. Not inclined to vote here as is.

EBWOP:

That was actually unfair of me - I was going off my impression of flub.

He's probably going to hate this, but re-reading him now I actually think he is actively doing something here, even if I'm not entirely clear what it is. He made a valid question in #50, albeit of a player who probably wasn't prepared to answer it.

And he is making pushes.

So strike the comparison part. P1na seems open and congenial enough but not clear where he's going; flub is going somewhere, but I'm not clear on why. They are both amusing, though. So there is that.

Joe- I will fully confess that I was tunneling elsewhere as Joe entered the game, and his posting style means you can't really digest him without focusing.

Apparently the quote I responded to earlier thinking it was about HSL was about ZFR, and it wasn't really about me at all. But the response vis-a-vis HSL still stands, albeit in relation to other things Joe has said, just not that one specifically.

As before I appreciate his humor.

A few concerns:

1) he's made two references to the prior game (RVS voting scene redux, albeit without caps), and the "HEYWAITAMINUTE" bit, that feel ...tingly. Might be NAI and just bragging about prior success. Might also be mafia replaying greatest hits because of the WIFOM that surely he wouldn't draw maf and do exactly that same thing twice?

Yogs absolutely would, though he would probably even find a way to up the degree of difficulty further by making the WIFOM totally explicit. I'm curious what SPF thinks of those two posts specifically.

But "let me make a point of repeating what I just did as mafia" tingles a bit.

2) The misalignment with reads list and votes is notable. At various points he has Ix teamed with both scene and myself (I think everyone universally can agree, if nothing else, that scene and I are not w/w) and yet votes for P1na for...I can't be sure because "I can't give a decent reason now, but I'd hardly expect decent reasons from anybody at this stage." This after saying it is "definitely bler/Ix and...maybe SPF" and immediately voting SPF. Which, hey, I get that's at least partially just staking claim and not real.

But read on Ix is "not much to go on, I think. He suspects me?" so...I'm not clear where that earlier stake came from. The read on me in that moment I get, maybe, though if it's based on my tete-a-tete with scene as it appears to be, Joe presumably knows the game well enough to know which of the two of us was correct and which was not.

I also don't follow at all why that particular post from SPF he cited to justify his early SPF vote would represent "support for a teammate".

Here's what SPF said in that post:

"You mean the random.org vote? I wouldn't say that's especially AI considering ZFR also did it and was town.
Hmm, now I'm wondering if ZFR only did it in this game for consistency because he has something to hide."

Uh...unless I'm just not following, how is that supporting me or any other teammate? SPF is disagreeing with me. The only thing that post does is set the stage for going at ZFR. @Joe - Please explain.

I expect him to be goofy. It is early, and it's only his 5th post, but it is post #149 overall. Surely there's something...at least by D1 "decent" standards to justify x over y somewhere on the table? Sure, nothing "great" I'll grant you.

I swear this wasn't a setup, but his read of flub suggests he didn't read flub closely either and just assigned a default "flub is flub" assessment.

Why would you vote cristi, exactly?

What's with the "free pass" for ZFR? And does that still hold if you two start to emerge as the primary wagons down the stretch?

Maybe he's just not caught up, but he at least seemed to imply he was. He makes the case that he's rushing a bit. Will grant that.

Maybe it's just that we disagree on nearly everything besides probably SPF now, but the vagueness and the conclusions feel like they aren't based on actual reads.

Would vote. I have half the group blocked off as safe D1 non-votes, so...if we're not voting scene anything else is a compromise vote anyway.

Argument against is he is a goofball so this could all be NAI, and I do enjoy having him in-game. But compared to P1na or ZFR given what's on the table, yeah, he gets the vote for sure 10 times out of 10.

vote Joe