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neumi5694: I can understand the companies. I don't think it's about DRM in the first place. They know that their games get copied anyway. No, it's about functionality and effort.
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Timboli: There is some contradiction there.

If it isn't about DRM, then why do so many of the game providers use it? Especially if as you say, their games get copied anyway.

A game isn't born with DRM. DRM is an added extra that costs. And clearly that cost is passed on.
Do we really know how many of these games actually use DRM? As many people keep saying, there are plenty of games on Steam without DRM. Out of the 620 games I own on Steam, about 340 I have exclusivly to Steam. Among these I found about 30 games without DRM. Of course I didn't even install all of the indie freebies, the number is probably higher.
But it's a good indicator.
Also most games I own on Epic can be played without launcher, if one knows how to add a command line parameter to a link. That means they run without DRM. Still many of them are not available on GOG.

Of course I don't have an explanation for everything. If it was only about DRM and/or offline functionalities, then we should have Death Stranding.
That game does works offline and online (different player IDs, savegames are not exchangeable). Of course the offline version requires a lot more work, since you have to build all the streets yourself.

But as mentioned several times already: If you need an account for community or ingame features depending on other players, is it DRM? On GOG many answer "yes". But is it really? Would we be happy with a cripled game if that was the price to pay in order not to need online authentification? That's what we got in many cases. It means broken games (in some cases, Saints Row 4 for example) and more work for the developers.
Post edited September 25, 2022 by neumi5694
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Timboli: There is some contradiction there.

If it isn't about DRM, then why do so many of the game providers use it? Especially if as you say, their games get copied anyway.

A game isn't born with DRM. DRM is an added extra that costs. And clearly that cost is passed on.

I do agree there is more effort though, maintaining two versions of a game, DRM and DRM-Free, especially as many games get rushed to market, and in that process suffer cost savings, resulting in bugs and incompleteness ... or lesser completeness, things not done as well as they should be. Hell, I am surprised we get as many Linux and Mac versions as there is, as they would be a cost saving cut too. Factor in the cost of bugfixes and updates for two versions of a game, and the deterrents increase.

And yes, less functionality in some cases so the game can be DRM-Free. That wouldn't be a particularly encouraging factor to make a game DRM-Free.

DRM-Free is a continuing hard ask, especially in this age of increasing DRM.

GOG have been playing the survival game, which wasn't too hard in the beginning, because they had a good lot of AAA games that had become old games, but the greater portion of those that remain now, that aren't here, are in most cases mired in licensing and or ownership issues. Sure we have games becoming old games every year, but where once GOG was the store for old games, many owners and other stores have now seen the viability of selling old games, thanks to GOG's example. And of course a number of companies have now popped up that revitalize old games, rework or remaster and even remake them. Thus GOG need to continually think outside the box to keep surviving. Whether that will eventually mean compromises (or more of them), remains to be seen.

Of course, while this has been happening, Indie Games have improved in numbers, and in leaps and strides for a good number when it comes to better quality. In fact, Indie games have become a kind of acceptable norm. The advent of Kickstarter has also helped change the state of things.

Nothing stays the same. Changes keep marching on in the name of progress, and adaptions and compromises continually need to be made.
Remember that some DRM isn't just DRM, and in fact has function. For instance, using Steam DRM allows access to several community functions, including achievements. In many cases, the DRM is added to add the functions. So many of the "DRM" games on other platforms have DRM only to take advantage of functions that many users want. It is indeed a losing battle I think that GOG is fighting, (or even we as users are fighting) since DRM is in virtually everything. Your PC, your car, your phone... The manufacturer maintains more control than ever over the things you've been sold. And people love them for it for the "features" provided, the bonuses, the security, the assistance, the convenience.
Post edited September 25, 2022 by paladin181
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neumi5694: Do we really know how many of these games actually use DRM? As many people keep saying, there are plenty of games on Steam without DRM. Out of the 620 games I own on Steam, about 340 I have exclusivly to Steam. Among these I found about 30 games without DRM. Of course I didn't even install all of the indie freebies, the number is probably higher.
But it's a good indicator.

I can confirm however, that most games on Epic can be played without launcher, if one knows how to add a command line parameter to a link. That means they run without DRM. Still most of them are not available on GOG.

Of course I don't have an explanation for everything. If it was only about DRM and/or offline functionalities, then we should have Death Stranding.
That game does works offline and online (different player IDs, savegames are not exchangeable). Of course the offline version requires a lot more work, since you have to build all the streets yourself.
I cannot confirm your facts and figures there, or whether you have only checked the free games Epic have been giving away. In any case, I was mostly referring to new AAA games, and making the point that if DRM did not concern them, then why have DRM at all.

DRM-Free at Steam or Epic is not the same as DRM-Free at GOG. For one thing, you don't get installer files and you have to install your game first, which can result in a huge source folder to back up or where there are no guarantees. They are not promoted as DRM-Free and any such state could change any time, and you would never know unless you actually tested the game yourself on another PC without a client install. For that very reason I call that kind of DRM-Free as DRM-Free Lite ... it isn't ideal DRM-Free out-of-the-box and it requires work etc to make it so.

I don't know what body of volunteers maintain those Steam and Epic DRM-Free lists, but the listing wouldn't be infallible. By the time you download a game on the list its state could have changed. Or a subsequent update or DLC might add DRM. And unless you want to waste storage space on a backup drive, you would need to compress the game folder for backup, which takes time, especially with a large game.
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paladin181: Remember that some DRM isn't just DRM, and in fact has function. For instance, using Steam DRM allows access to several community functions, including achievements. In many cases, the DRM is added to add the functions. So many of the "DRM" games on other platforms have DRM only to take advantage of functions that many users want. It is indeed a losing battle I think that GOG is fighting, (or even we as users are fighting) since DRM is in virtually everything. Your PC, your car, your phone... The manufacturer maintains more control than ever over the things you've been sold. And people love them for it for the "features" provided, the bonuses, the security, the assistance, the convenience.
Well each to their own, and you are right as far as many young folk especially go.

For sure, those who care about DRM-Free are likely a dwindling group of folk, mainly made up of older gamers.

I don't care about such things as achievements and online gamer chatting etc, but the younger generations especially, do.

Everything is well and truly heading toward more control by the provider, especially with multimedia.

In the end it will all be subscription based. That has some advantages, especially if it also heralds a new age of equality, but we will have many teething issues and disparities until then.

And then there is the issue that many of us care about ... old games, and all games eventually get old, and promotion and caring is mostly about new stuff. So while gamers might gain convenience with benefits, a lot may also be lost. In the end, it is all about what voice we gamers have, and that voice diminishes when the providers have all control.
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Timboli: I don't know what body of volunteers maintain those Steam and Epic DRM-Free lists, but the listing wouldn't be infallible.
That's why I doublechecked with my games and found about 30.

Well, if you are only talking about a very specific group of games, then you should say so from the beginning.

Same for other things. If by "DRM free" you don't mean "playing without online verification" but something else, then you must say so. Yes, GOG has offline installers, that's a great plus. But also these have to be downloaded using an account...

Downloading through Galaxy? Not possible without account. And are the games downloaded through galaxy not DRM free anymore? I mean ... the files are identical to the ones installed with the offline installer. So are both only DRM lite or both fully DRM free?

We can discuss for days who considers what to be DRM and who not.
At the end of the day however the point still stands: DRM is not the one and only reason why publishers don't come here.
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neumi5694: Downloading through Galaxy? Not possible without account. And are the games downloaded through galaxy not DRM free anymore? I mean ... the files are identical to the ones installed with the offline installer. So are both only DRM lite or both fully DRM free?
The distribution method matters. "DRM-free games on Steam" makes no sense, because their distribution system is imposing a proprietary third-party client.

If you don’t see mandatory third-party software as DRM then you won’t see the issue with Steam. But that would also mean that Valve marketing campaigns worked (spoiler: they actually did work) and that they managed to twist the sense of DRM for many people in a way that would exclude their own systems from the common definition.

Content distributed through the Steam client is DRMed. Content distributed through the Epic Games Store client is DRMed. Content distributed through the Galaxy client is DRMed. It does not matter that the game files might end up being the same than what we get from DRM-free distribution methods.

Excluding the distribution method from the fight against DRM would be missing the point of what DRM is about in the first place.
Not sure what people mean by "increasing DRM". I feel like I haven't had to worry about DRM in ages and the situation there had improved dramatically. I remember the dark days of StarForce and the like. Some of this conversation legitimately reads like FUD to me or like people forgot how bad DRM used to be and are splitting hairs.

I'm against DRM on the grounds of being prevented from playing a game I bought properly, or on the grounds of the DRM being hostile and invasive. I'm a paying customer get your crap out of my face. I think this group is still quite solid and is largely being catered to by modern publishers.

I don't really care about being against DRM on political grounds. Steam doesn't fit my definition DRM, for example. Often I actively seek to get a game on Steam these days because it organizes things nicely and I enjoy the community aspect. All my Steam games where I cared ran offline and are moddable. Games like Stardew Valley are extractable, I'm sure many others are, as well. The only issue I recently remember is the whole original Bioshock disappearing... but, guess what, it's gone from GOG, too.

I'm quite happy GOG Galaxy is able to merge my Steam stuff and show it to me all assembled. I don't have a dog in the fights between all the storefronts/publishers/launchers/whatever, I just want it all to work and I don't want to have to install 50 secondary programs. Steam and GOG Galaxy both invested in being high quality library apps, so I'm OK with them. I have yet to even look at EGS because I don't see the point and no you can't just bribe me with free games. I don't have GamePass for similar reasons.

My main interest in GOG was probably the same as it was for most people originally. Old titles and, specifically, extra support for old titles. I think other storefronts kind of caught on to this, though (people are willing to pay for functioning old games, who knew), so GOG doesn't have as an exclusive of a share here anymore, and, unfortunately, sometimes GOG sandbags so I can't always just blindly buy an old game on GOG and believe it'll work well.

On the other hand, I couldn't even tell you what GOG has been releasing. GOG largely seems to prioritize showing me old games, which I'm fine with. But a lot of the time this is about discoverability and ease of finding things + UX. I'm currently clicking around GOG Galaxy and often I just get a white page, I cannot view neither my wishlist nor click on some games right now. I'm sure they're working on it.

Next thing for me would be advanced modding organization. I'd pay extra for that. But I don't think this has even been started on.

If I want to go find some stuff to play I default to Steam because it knows me well and I have a lot of things customized. I have not found, for instance, a way to inform GOG that I do not want to see games primarily about well endowed anime women. Furthermore, if GOG insists on showing me a bunch of games I already have on Steam... well, yeah, I'm not going to buy stuff twice unless I have reasons to believe there's better support on another storefront.
Post edited September 25, 2022 by Chrontos
If GOG is frustrating and insulting to it's customers more than occassionally, it stands to reason that that's a factor developers take into consideration when deciding where they're going to release their product. Gog is fairly talented at shooting itself in the foot.
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neumi5694: Downloading through Galaxy? Not possible without account. And are the games downloaded through galaxy not DRM free anymore? I mean ... the files are identical to the ones installed with the offline installer. So are both only DRM lite or both fully DRM free?
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vv221: The distribution method matters. "DRM-free games on Steam" makes no sense, because their distribution system is imposing a proprietary third-party client.

If you don’t see mandatory third-party software as DRM then you won’t see the issue with Steam. But that would also mean that Valve marketing campaigns worked (spoiler: they actually did work) and that they managed to twist the sense of DRM for many people in a way that would exclude their own systems from the common definition.

Content distributed through the Steam client is DRMed. Content distributed through the Epic Games Store client is DRMed. Content distributed through the Galaxy client is DRMed. It does not matter that the game files might end up being the same than what we get from DRM-free distribution methods.

Excluding the distribution method from the fight against DRM would be missing the point of what DRM is about in the first place.
That was what my question was about. Is a game downloaded through Galaxy less DRM free than a game installed through the offline installers downloaded from GOG using an account?

(Btw, I still have a few games that came on DVD and had to be activated on Steam. No download)
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psychosopher: I tried everything... To ignore sales, to clear my wishlist a number of times, to leave, to stop playing untied games, to play somewhere else, my pile of shame "unplayed games" is growing here only, I can't play and collect games anywhere else. If devs or publishers are not going to publish the game here or DRM-free elsewhere I am not going to play it. The forum is unique too.
Too many games here too. I have no pretense of clearing the backlog. If there is an interesting game, new or old, I will support it. Sometimes a good demo helps making that decision.

This way I have ended up getting and playing some nice adventure games, even if that is not my preferred genre overall (strategy and rpgs are). Looking forward to Song of Farca and Chinatown Detective Agency, to name two new ones. Before that, Wadget Eye never fails.

Also waiting for a few titles to come put of 'in dev' status. But I might make an exception with Mount and Blade: Bannerlord.
...
Post edited October 01, 2022 by spherical-cow
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spherical-cow: I mean come on GOG, Itch is a tiny indie company and they have a cross-platform client that supports Linux, Mac and Windows.
I don't know where you get this notion of them being small and being Indie. Sure they sell Indie games, but they are a commercial store, one of the biggest around now outside of Steam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itch.io
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Timboli: link to wikipedia
That is still advertisement. LOL.
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neumi5694: Well, if you are only talking about a very specific group of games, then you should say so from the beginning.
Because I didn't think i would have to about something so obvious. AAA games are where most of the DRM is at, and where game providers appear to care the most.

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neumi5694: Same for other things. If by "DRM free" you don't mean "playing without online verification" but something else, then you must say so. Yes, GOG has offline installers, that's a great plus. But also these have to be downloaded using an account...

Downloading through Galaxy? Not possible without account. And are the games downloaded through galaxy not DRM free anymore? I mean ... the files are identical to the ones installed with the offline installer. So are both only DRM lite or both fully DRM free?

We can discuss for days who considers what to be DRM and who not.
Not sure how any of this is relevant to what I wrote, as all I did was discuss a different type of DRM-Free.

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neumi5694: At the end of the day however the point still stands: DRM is not the one and only reason why publishers don't come here.
Well I never said it was the only reason, just that DRM is a significant reason, else why would they bother to use it. Their actions speak louder than words ... though in my words I also mentioned the extra work etc.

There are many game providers who don't like using Steam, but Steam are so big and reach so many gamers, that they cannot avoid using them. With GOG it doesn't matter so much, GOG aren't even in the same ballpark. That said, Epic's war with Steam is a very obvious reaction to Steam dislike.

At the end of the day, it is all about doing deals and coming to an agreement. All about expectations too, and past behavior, and from what I have seen over the years, a good number of game providers abuse GOG and GOG customers. From abandonware here and all manner of shonky and suss going ons. I am pretty sure some see GOG as like not having to provide a demo ... release an incomplete game here, and if folk like it enough but can't get a bugfree version at GOG, they will in many cases then buy it again at Steam.

I wouldn't like to be in GOG's shoes where they have to be tough with a game provider, as they are between a rock and a hard place, almost a no win situation. And I am sure that a number of game providers out there like to paint a bad picture of GOG, lay all the blame for this that and the other at GOG's door, while really they are the ones at fault. It is easy to pretend to not care about DRM-Free, if you then don't need to provide it due to a declared issue with GOG.

GOG have got the toughest deal of all, unlike Steam or Epic or Itch.io etc etc ... all of who have got it pretty easy.
Post edited September 26, 2022 by Timboli
Well, they do have a game coming which I am really interested in. They only do not release it (yet). Why? it is not a new game - the game is from 2018. They announced it months ago. GOG, where is my Two Point Hospital copy!

But yeah, there are not that many game releases on GOG I'm interested in. Even publishers who are on GOG do not release all of their (more interesting) games here (Paradox, 505 Games, Bethesda).