Good to see it's finally over.

I dislike lurkers nearly as much as you do, but why should they bother sticking their neck out when town, by and large, was busy infighting and doing their job for them?

I think JMich's strategy of just waiting out his heat on two Days straight was rather a good one. He just let Town get bored and turn their attention on each other each Day. I don't have to like it as a general strategy, but I have to admit that it was wise in this case.

Damn! When a bunch of the most forum mafia loving people I had the pleasure to play with started to drop like flies it starts to look like something is seriously wrong...

so should everyone just lurk and do nothing so they blend in with the scum-lurkers?

lurkers seriously need to die, folks. what baffles me here is that HijacK wasn't even really lurking much more than he normally would have at that point in the game + being a PR. There was nothing damning or scary about his lurking. Meanwhile flub was lurking waayyyy more and even being a little scummy and doing NOTHING pro-town, and yet he is just allowed to go on living and gets no suspicion for days and days WHY? He's even allowed to soft-claim vanilla with a vanilla bean avatar as soon as a game starts, and not draw enough suspicion for a lynch. WHY?!

I seriously constantly try to play in a pro-town manner, and never mean to be anti-town. I try to discuss all things and put all options that I think are possible to be on the table to try and discuss them all. We need to discuss all things more to try and figure what is what rather than push agendas so much.

anyway, if anyone wants to discuss any issues they might have with me, please do so via PM - I really think there is a lot of misunderstanding that can easily be resolved if desired

While it's easy to throw stones from glass houses...

1) I think it was a mistake to let A4 sub out, moreso than it was a mistake to not policy lynch a4/RW. Scum got a huge gift there - they got to make the perfect play, and then waltz off with no repercussions whatsoever because it gave cover to the 'newb who just didn't know what they were doing' theory. It was fairly easy for RW to step in, because of the 'newb who didn't know what s/he was doing" theory as cover for the new player.

Subs are a tricky business. The lynch of Hijack couldn't be undone, but that was the major swing in the game right there.

2) In terms of overall balance, I like a lot of the ideas here, but no flips (imo) are also a tricky business. I know town had some extra powers to attempt to balance that out, but...in the small percent of games where town loses its two good roles early (as in this one) it leaves the cupboard very bare and town with nothing to go on.

As someone noted in the thread, the exorcist was somewhat irrelevant. Scum who were lynched would still get to chat in scum chat and get their -1 cast off, so they'd get the 'best' of their role anyway, especially since they could coordinate it.

Perhaps tweak that mechanic and make the 3rd role a reserve coroner/herbalist.

Strawman.

Untrue. An Evil Spectre would be allowed to read scumchat (hard to prevent it), but not post in it. There could still be coordination, but it would only be one way. The Evil Spectre would not be able to tell scumbuddies what Spectre powers were available, and the Good Spectres had been good at keeping that under wraps. There was a Spectre ability that allowed the Spectre to chat within another player outside of the thread (yogsloth's 'blah blah blah' power), but if that were chosen the Spectre wouldn't be able to use any of the possibly more useful powers to scum.

Ehm.

I want to add more but I choose Overwatch over this for now. :-)

Actually, no idea whether dead scum could still talk in scum chat. I would have suspected not as upon death, one loses the powers they had while they are living.

As to your idea of a policy lynch, it has to be consistent. You either replace or you don't. What would happen if, say a key town PR, asks for a replacement? The mod has to remain neutral. Town had every chance to go after A4, but the only one who wanted her was Yogs. I think if you look back on Day 1 and 2, you'll see some mega scum tells. And for the record, I think A4 admitted to not knowing that was the lynch. It was a true accident, she thought he was at L-2, she was not trying to hammer.

No flips are a valid playstyle. Remember, town had all the powers and scum had absolutely nothing. There were still "peeks in the shower".

I'd feel different if scumchat were littered with comments from A4 about feeling overwhelmed or asking for advice on how to handle reads/approach the game.

As is it feels like they went "wheeeee!" until shit hit the fan and they quickly subbed out. It reads to me as a player on the hook and seeking a deus ex machina and getting it, not someone who'd been struggling-struggling-struggling and hit the wall.

So I'm not sure it's as simple as "always" or "never."

It was... pretty weird! I knew yogs will be pissed. I knew scum will eventually win flawless. What surprised me is how many people didn't really think what they were doing. I'm sensing the mafia scene here has become too personal for some. Maybe they do need a break. I feel their feelings pretty much fucked up the game.

Some more thoughts - arraigned randomly -

The overall setup was very swingy, but that's not a bad thing by itself. I actually think it came together pretty well. My dislike for no-flips is not a secret, but this is one scenario where it kinda started to make sense. I thought the overall balance was pretty darn good, and you know what? I would love to see this as an open-setup game and run again. That's how the hardcore people do it, you know. They find a setup they like, make it open, and do it over and over again, and then keep stats on T vs. M victories.

Not that I want to be a hardcore people, because I have had some bad experiences recently.

I want to call attention to both babark and lotsa... locwa... lockawa... that guy... because unlike a4 who was all gung-ho (as now evidenced by the scumchat) and then subbed out, both these guys had some growing pains, but got better as the game went on. I think that now they have a game under their belt, they'd be good additions to the team.

We also got stuffed up our own asses with the negativity. It all washed off my back, but in particular the HSL/RW stuff was out of hand.

We've got real problems to fix with that and the lurking in order to make this work.

As part of the whole "champs" thing, I've been investigating how other communities do this, and it's astonishing how many different ways there are to play mafia. There are sites that always start with a N0 kill. There are sites where Day phase is 2 hours and Night is twenty minutes. There are sites full of kiddies who can't string together a sentence. There are sites that are so brutally hardcore, humor is literally a modkillable offense. I like GOG's general congeniality and good humor - but we've got to find someway to be more strict about keeping out the bad stuff and keeping what makes this place special. I don't know exactly how to do that, except to be a little heavier-handed with the moderation in regards to attacks and post counts.

I don't know, but it's got to be done, because I'm serious about not being able to get excited about playing if we don't fix the lurker problem, and trent doesn't want to play because of the negativity.... well, just enjoy playing with JMich and CSPVG and whomever else just sitting silently staring at each other in slovenly apathy every game.

My main issue with all of that was that even if you don't pick up on a breadcrumb, once another player comes out and says "hey, I saw breadcrumbs from suchandsuch player", every single player (including scum of course, if they missed it) should be going back and looking to see if they can see/find/decypher it for themselves, and more people here should have been doing that, imo, and HijacK should have never gone to even L-3, and certainly not 2, 1, 0.

How am I not supposed to suspect every single 1 of you who let that happen? How am I not supposed to suspect trent when he on early D2 comes out and says he devised a plan to find scum and it went so well that he can now halt the plan and tell you all with certainty that I and HijacK are scum, when I know for a fact I am not scum, and I highly doubted HijacK was either, and then HijacK gets lynched, trent never says "oops, my plan didn't work like I thought", never defends or explains a single farking thing! Not helpful, anti-town play. And I don't mean to be harping on trent, either, I'm just telling you why I was so steadfast in how I was. anyway, lynching HijacK=some poooor poor town play, as said.

after a refresh, I see Vitek has posted that post #630, thanks, I was looking for that. but really, trent played anti-town enough (in my view, by not ever really contributing anything useful) that I don't really think saying such is necessary, he might as well have been scum for his non-help to town, again, just in my view. I should have amended before the game was over that I wouldn't do that any longer because of regardless of him being town or not, it no longer mattered. Ah well.

My question now is did a4plz really know what she was doing at least when lynching HijacK? and overall how much she was full of it, or really was lost newcomer who couldn't stay caught up, and to what degree? I suppose if I look at scum-chat I'll have a better idea...

stupid stupid stupid stupid (talking about myself here for not voting a4plz out of the gate on D3 like I was SOOO SOO SOOOOO tempted to do. My finger was seriously on the red-button of doom multiple times to almost vote her, and then I tried to really give the benefit of the doubt and do the good town thing by not just killing a likely noob. STUPID stupid stupid. I never was able to find that I-D10-T form.) I should have just stuck with the policy kill of the hammerer. THAT IS WHY IT IS THERE. that is the best good use of the hammer mechanic, because it helps shit like that not happen carelessly by town, and with beneficial repercussions for town if it was done by mafia pulling a fast one. DAMNIT!

Moving on...

Ah I see RW says a4 didn't know it was the hammer lynch. Good/interesting to know, at least, but will read the scum-chat, for sure. Yes, never making that mistake again. auto-lynch to premature hammerers, I knew and do know better!

Again, poor poor town play not going after her.

There were interesting mechanics and overall it seemed mostly balanced except for, you know, the scenario that unfolded. It is Good's fault for letting the herbalist die, really, Evil benefited from bad town play, is all, and you can't expect them to not do that, but, yes something like a 1x pass-the-role mechanic for the herbalist (master herbalist has an apprentice, if master dies, apprentice gets all/most of herbalists healing supplies or somesuch) might have been better balanced.

I was curious about the spectre's being able to use the NC after being dead because they obviously could read it. With how it seemed to be going against town, I figured they had to be able to talk in it too. I like that it was 1-way only. Good mechanics, again.

Thanks RW for saying it's just my style. It is. I like to analyze and theorize and scrutinize and, again, while doing it all I really do try to be helpful to town, not anti-town. I try to propose a bunch of ideas that seem possible, and analyze how everyone reacts/responds to those things and move forward with any that do end up seeming like they are a likely enough thing that we should move forward with acting on the assumption of. Then I like to pick at even the smallest of things that in a conspiracy theory way COULD be possible about how people are acting/doing, poke at that a little, and see what sort of response I get. Sometimes the response warrants further scrutiny, but certainly not always.

I don't get tunnel-visioned on such a small scope of players NORMALLY, and I'm not at all just against people just because they're on me or I think they disagree with me. That is not how I am at all, really, and if it seems like that, we simply misunderstand each other/I'm coming off wrong and we should work civilly to work it out (not do what HSL was doing so aggressively with it.)

For me, it is frustrating when I pose ideas that I think could be feasible or helpful to Good to talk about, and no one wants to address it/shuts it down without any real reason (no lynch is part of the game, if someone wants to discuss it, it shouldn't just be shut down because you against it as a mechanic in general), and I find it a bit scummy to not be open to discussing ideas. Not wanting to participate in discussion that is necessary for doing the dirty job of figuring out who to kill and killing them, I mean, then why are you here? Again, yes, lurkers must lurk less!!! Town must stop letting the lurkers lurk. Death to lurkers, for serious!

Nah, man, it's not like that at all!

But it really is. I used to narrate V:TM LARPs. The largest had over 50 active players and just 3 Storytellers. The most important thing is consistency in one's rulings, one's administration. Because if mods start deciding to just mod kill a player, how long do you think it will take players to figure out that means they were really off the track? Or if they then decide to replace a player, that player must have a power role? Or hey, Town you are behind, here, take this extra ability...its a slippery slope.

Besides, I think some people had the idea that was why A4 left. They just didn't follow up on it, or lacked enough support. But it works both ways. ChickenWings was the most Town all game. Don't you think one of the reasons he wasn't NK'd was his "newbie" status? Any veteran player, without any suspicion, would almost definitely be NK'd.