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General discussionForum Mafia #49 - Retirement isn't so Peaceful(1018 posts)(1018 posts)
(1018 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 23, 2017
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Bookwyrm627: ...is this a trick question?
No tricks, a genuine question.
Posted June 23, 2017
Yeah, unless docbear impresses before deadline I suppose she is an okay lynch / definitely better than none, but, egh, glad cristi is okay to hammer, I wouldn't feel good about it, errr, I don't have a good feeling about it.

don't know why more ppl can't see their way to lift either, I don't understand that for a lot of people
Posted June 23, 2017
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flubbucket: [...] Perhaps "prove" is the wrong term. Would NOT lynching him prove towniness??

I have no idea either way. I just see a possibility to garner something of substance.[...]
I think I understand the "a possibility to garner something of substance", but as dedoporno said that doesn't say anything about the other Miller claim. Unless, you're indirectly saying that the only claim you don't believe is HijacK's one. But your next comment doesn't seem to support such a belief?


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flubbucket: [...] It's not a question of belief at the moment. I don't want the yogsloth/HijacK claims to go untested. But it can wait for another way to triangulate. [...]
I want to believe, and certainly hope, that there's some mechanic/ability in play that can shed sufficient light to clear the situation. I mean, if there's no way to test and verify/debunk the Miller claims, then we have a very serious problem, and I'd like to think that RWarehall is not that much of a bastard mod to tip the game against town before it even starts.



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yogsloth: What exactly would it prove, though?

"Yep, yog flipped Scum, that proves he was Town"

?????
The proof may not be in the flip itself, and/or come at the time of the flip.


I'm still undecided if I buy the claims, but also not sure if lynching either of them is the way to go Today.


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yogsloth: Oops, sorry, I did see this question and even answered it in my head at the time. Doesn't that count? [...]
Unless you think me to have mind-reading powers, no.

I understand the influence from MU, and the preference to lynch scummy players, but perhaps keeping in mind that we have no MU players in this game may be a good idea; clearing someone as town for a single cross-post doesn't sound particularly wise to me.



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Bookwyrm627: [...] Why would you cherry pick two of the lowest volume posters for this particular argument? What about waiting for reactions from Yog, you, and Lift? (just to name three that have been consistently present all Day) [...]
I'm not cherry picking at all, quite the contrary. What I'm not sure, though, is if you missed my questioning of and exchanges with trentonlf on the matter, or just pretending to do so. I mean if you actually missed it, in the part you quoted there's a line that should have tipped you of, namely [emphasis added]:
I made that list to point you that I see plenty of the active people weighing in on it,
Go read my post #427 - a good number of those that "have been consistently present all D1", including the three you mention by name, are listed as already having reacted. Then read his response, then go over my follow-up post #489.

So yeah, when 2ds after the reactions of a number of actives, his argument, that Ifelt I had to drag out of him, is "I was hoping to see more people weigh in on it:, it begs the question if he was waiting for "the lowest volume posters", as you put it.
Posted June 23, 2017
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yogsloth: I think I figured out what I'm going to do tonight.

@Cristi - before you hammer make sure I have time to talk about it. I'll be offline about 8PM EST, so 2-3 hours before deadline, so it will need to be by then.
I'm in no hurry. No reason not to give everyone a chance to say what they have to say.

@drealmer - the longer docbear doesn't post, the better I feel about this hammer. Her last post reads 2 days ago. I think town-docbear at least tries to present a case.


On a totally unrelated note, psyched there is a new episode of The Great British Baking show tonight (for US viewers). Not sure why, I don't like to bake but love this show.
Posted June 23, 2017
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drealmer7: "good" as in he's on the side of leaning scum for me in a decent capacity (not just some 1 weak flimsy thing), mostly I think the vote on me is sketch and he left it on a bit long and his reasons are weak, but I haven't liked the tone of hardly any of his posts in general either - I think he also makes a good one of those pre-mentioned in-sight to slaughter targets...[...]
So, it's (again) something that has to do with you. You tend to scum or town read people too much in relation to how they react to you This is something not particularly AI, more so for you, but you may want to consider that it may be one of the reasons people don't listen to you as much as you'd like them to.


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drealmer7: [...] OMFG, NO! GO LOOK IT UP. EVERY FARKING TIME! JMich is the one who is okay with L-2 claims, I'm pretty sure. Regardless, I AM NOT, GET IT CORRECT, PLEASE. geebus, I'll repeat it again just to be sure. ONLY L-1 CLAIMS!
I think it is only good to do it at L-1 because it makes scum be in the position that, if all of scum aren't already on the wagon, they have to decide if they are going to hammer it (because most likely then the claim is true and scum knows if they want to / how much they want to remove that role/player from the game and if the hammer is explainable from their position and other factors that TOTALLY DISAPPEAR / AREN'T THERE if the claim comes at L-2.) [...]
You know, drealmer7, instead of yelling and devoting so many words to something that ma or may not be particularly relevant to the current gamestate, you could have answered my question about Sage103082.


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drealmer7: of course, there can be exceptions to the L-1 claim - like if a double-voter is involved, [...]
And how exactly would the one on the chopping block know that if it's not a clear case of two public votes so they can claim at L-2?


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drealmer7: The main thing about it for me on top of the reason I already gave (that it devalues the wagon and its analysis, and helps scum plan, manipulate, etc., better) is that the mod is making the game. If the mod wanted roles to be known on D1, the mod would make the game semi-open or open. The fact that it is a closed game means that the mod definitely has the intention of the roles not being known as part of the setup / balance. Sure the mod accounts for a couple claims likely on D1 because of getting to L-1 and potential multiple wagons to L-1. On MS they do a whole bunch of early claiming going on, and it never serves town well imo. Even if a game is open or semi-open, I don't think the mod intends there to be a bunch of premature claims either, for the record, but it makes even less sense in a game where roles are hidden to be so willynilly with the claiming.
IMO, the players are going to play the game the way they want/ see fit based on the setup as they read/understand it, their alignment, their PM and win-condition. And I'd assume that most don't strategise and plan their actions starting with "Now, let's see what the mod wants us to do".

No offence, but I think that "the mod intended this/that/whatever and we should play according to it" is a personal gripe of yours, as I felt was demonstrated in the game you hosted with all those rules, conditions and penalties. I probably shouldn't have brought it up in the game-thread, and at this point, so perhaps it's better if whatever you have to say on the matter waits until post-game.


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drealmer7: [...] Putting a PGO in the game absolutely uses its utility as intended by the mod if ppl just claim it. Or ascetic, or miller, or, or... [...]
You're a genuine Miller. You know you investigate and flip scum, if of the Death Miller variety. You keep mum on D1, because "the mod has a plan".
You get investigated N1. Whatever the mod planned with another mechanic/ability doesn't take place at the same Night.
Cop comes out and says "I cop-ed drealmer7, he's scum". Nobody else has anything else to offer to counter this result, and anything you did N1 is most likely viewed through the scum-lens..
You claim Miller. Do the rest buy it, and give you a chance for something to clear the situation? Or do they lynch you, upon which you also flip scum, if of the Death Miller variety?

Anything that could clear you doesn't happen until end D2 (if regular Miller) or N2, but you're likely already dead. So, what is the benefit of claiming D2 instead of D1?

Or do you still not claim?
Posted June 23, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: ...........

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flubbucket: [...] It's not a question of belief at the moment. I don't want the yogsloth/HijacK claims to go untested. But it can wait for another way to triangulate. [...]
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HypersomniacLive: I want to believe, and certainly hope, that there's some mechanic/ability in play that can shed sufficient light to clear the situation. I mean, if there's no way to test and verify/debunk the Miller claims, then we have a very serious problem, and I'd like to think that RWarehall is not that much of a bastard mod to tip the game against town before it even starts.

...............
I would bet there is something in the game to balance such things. I have zero knowledge of anything. It just seems logical.
Posted June 23, 2017
@Hyper - who, if anyone, is your preferred vote today?
Posted June 23, 2017
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cristigale: @Hyper - who, if anyone, is your preferred vote today?
I know you were asking Hyper, but I also want to answer this because I think we are going to have a bad lynch. I think docbear is still new at playing and struggling to convey her thoughts after someone else has said the same thing she is thinking. As I said before I see her play as town, but someone new to the game and struggling. I think scum are using that to their advantage and lynching a townie.

I still say Hijack is full it and should be the lynch, but unfortunately it looks like that's not happening.
Posted June 23, 2017
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HijacK: Why? I wasn't exactly the only one that was unaware of no role flip after lynch. I never read the sign up thread beyond the OP, and even then I forget most of it because I rely on the game thread OP for the most part. I mean, I know that is my fault, but if you're going to hold that against me, you should also hold it against the other half of the players that were unaware as well.[...]
And this is exactly what I told yogsloth a few posts earlier. Everyone and their cat can go "Hey, i didn't know about the no role flips mechanic, and I'm hardly the only, so don't hold it against me, and most certainly don't scum-read any of my evolving/contradicting arguments".

And I do hold it against them, in the sense I already explained to yogsloth.

Your case, though, is a bit more interesting as you admit of having read the sign-up thread, yet claim to have forgotten that said mechanic is in play. Seems like a pretty important thing to forget, imo.



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JMich: [...] There has been talk about Godfathers and whether we have them in this game, but I'm not sure if anyone commented about it in relation to the miller claims. [...]
Elaborate?



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Lifthrasil: [...] I KNEW it! You're a Cyclops! And Cyclopses are evil! GUYS! HSL just admitted to being evil! [...]
How nice. Joking the hot potato off. And still no arguments how the possible scenarios you casually threw out there could actually be in play. I'm inclined to call it mudslinging, and of the worse kind - the kind you know you've got nothing to even seemingly try to make a case.


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Lifthrasil: [...] But to answer your question: we really seem not to be using the same language. I didn't say a SK would claim a role that investigates and flips Mafia. What I said was this:

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Lifthrasil: Yes, you didn't use the word 'Vigilante', but a town aligned killing role IS a Vigilante. But of course you don't actually claim to be town. So if you are scum or neutral, the term Vigilante was obviously wrong and I apologize.
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Lifthrasil: Keep in mind, that at that point I had understood HijacK's half-claim to be a claim to have a killing power. 'Hitman' does imply that. And 'Muscle' made me think of strongman. And after having claimed a killing power (at least in my understanding), HijacK made a big thing of me using the word Vigilante to refer to his half-claim. So I explained why I used that word: A townie with killing power is a Vigilante. So the word, he was taking offense at, is only wrong for a scum or neutral with killing power. So in that sentence, which you misunderstood (or misrepresent) the topic was the validity of the word 'Vigilante'.
Of course, HijacK later corrected his half-claim and specified not to have a killing power. But that doesn't change that the use of the word 'Vigilante' for a town role with killing power is completely normal - and not scummy, as HijacK tried to spin it. [...]
I like how you quote a different part of the same post I used to make your point as if you didn't say what I quoted, and completely ignore the earlier one I quoted (post #332) where you clearly said:
So I guess at least one of you is scum or neutral.
I'm not trying to misrepresent the topic of your exchanges with HijacK, and for someone not missing a chance to point out how drealmer7 uses certain arguments, you seem to have adopted this tactic quite a bit yourself.

But no, you didn't answer my question. I read a lot of words that have nothing to do with my question besides "I didn't say a SK would claim a role that investigates and flips Mafia", which isn't exactly true. So, let's go over your arguments and try this again.

Your understanding was that HijacK claimed having a killing power, aka being a Miller-Vigilante.
But you don't believe his claim to be true, or that he's even town, hence his killing power is not that of a Vigilante.
You go on to say that since you don't believe him, you guess he's scum or "neutral". And you bring this twice into your arguments.

So, fact remains that in your arguments you clearly entertain the idea of him being scum or a "neutral" (I personally don't like the term "neutral" when we're talking about third-party roles with a killing ability, but whatever).

My question is why do you take it into consideration the case of him being a third-party role with a killing power when he claimed Miller that investigates and flips Mafia. I mean, I understand town going with all sorts of conditionals as a result of being in the uninformed group, but as I've said in a previous game, there's a limit to it when factoring in what could logically be in play.

You are obviously not going to explain how any of the scenarios of the happy scum-duos or happy scum-trios could have legs. Any chance you're going to explain this bit?
Posted June 24, 2017
*comes slinking in*

Well I didn't mean to disappear for a couple of days. I am utterly ashamed of myself and the way I've played. I deserve to be lynched. I think the fairest thing to do is bring the hammer down on myself. I realize I'm probably committing a cardinal sin, but at this point I think it's the best way to proceed.


[Vote Docbear1975b]
Posted June 24, 2017
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cristigale: @Hyper - who, if anyone, is your preferred vote today?
You're really asking The Reluctant Voter™?
Posted June 24, 2017
Wow. This I don't like. Makes zero sense to self-hammer like this, something is going on here. Yog, I hope you're here before RW comes in.
Posted June 24, 2017
Oh crap.
Posted June 24, 2017
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cristigale: @Hyper - who, if anyone, is your preferred vote today?
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yogsloth: You're really asking The Reluctant Voter™?
If you have anything to say you better do it now.
Posted June 24, 2017
Bump.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionForum Mafia #49 - Retirement isn't so Peaceful(1018 posts)(1018 posts)
(1018 posts)