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General discussionForum Mafia #46: Henchmen Hijinks(800 posts)(800 posts)
(800 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 06, 2017
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GammaEmerald: You are aware I played this before right? I wouldn't d something setup related without putting in some thought first.

<snip>

I changed position in two posts because I read up more. I figured "okay this seems interesting maybe we should try it", but now I feel it was rather silly to think revealing half a pick was a good idea.
I'm having some trouble seeing these two points of view coming from the same person. But either way, thank you for responding. One final question, just to see if this matches up with my impression of you: If you'd describe your own average play in a word or two, what would those be? (Like, "tenacious", "impulsive", "analytical", "flailing about", ...)?

For now, since I'm not yet confident enough that you're actually scum to want to lynch you quite yet, and since there's at least one other scum still around who's flying under the radar and deserves a wagon of their own (I really like the matrix for this! No need to consider the possibility of you and drealmer being scum together), and people might be reluctant to start a new one when the game seems to be too far developed:
unvote GammaEmerald
Posted March 06, 2017
@trent It seems to kinda be your modus operandi, but upon browsing through the thread a bit, it struck me how very little you've contributed so far. You haven't been absent, had a useful back-and-forth with drealmer, and asked some pointed questions - but you haven't really been putting yourself out there. And that also means I don't have any good hooks to base questions to you about, but I hope we can change that, because I'd really like to build trust in you early rather than reach another Smurfia ending, and for me that means I need something to work with!

For example, what are your thoughts on the way Gamma answers questions in general, and answered your specific question about the timing thing in particular?

And way at the beginning, you agreed with drealmer that it might be good not to start with revealing picks. You didn't feel very strongly about it, and as majority sentiment seemed to be for revealing asap, you became the first to do so. What I'm wondering is, now that Drealmer has said some more about this, including that his ideal scenario would've been a D2 reveal, do you still find yourself agreeing with him?

Finally: any early reads to share?
Posted March 06, 2017
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GammaEmerald: You are aware I played this before right? I wouldn't d something setup related without putting in some thought first.

<snip>

I changed position in two posts because I read up more. I figured "okay this seems interesting maybe we should try it", but now I feel it was rather silly to think revealing half a pick was a good idea.
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gogtrial34987: I'm having some trouble seeing these two points of view coming from the same person. But either way, thank you for responding. One final question, just to see if this matches up with my impression of you: If you'd describe your own average play in a word or two, what would those be? (Like, "tenacious", "impulsive", "analytical", "flailing about", ...)?

For now, since I'm not yet confident enough that you're actually scum to want to lynch you quite yet, and since there's at least one other scum still around who's flying under the radar and deserves a wagon of their own (I really like the matrix for this! No need to consider the possibility of you and drealmer being scum together), and people might be reluctant to start a new one when the game seems to be too far developed:
unvote GammaEmerald
Stupidly accurate. As in, I play stupid, and yet almost every game I nail a scum.

As for the confusion, the one-half thing was a blind spot idea, so I didn't think about it much when I first saw it, I was just like "oh wow that's clever!" Now I know it's a bad idea.
Posted March 07, 2017
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GammaEmerald: People seemed to be finding his "I'm most likely to be scum" talk scummy, which it's not. It's pretty much null to me since it's just talking statistics. Not really sure on the rest but I remember that clearly.
I just did a reread on people's posts in regards to adaliabooks. The only one jumping at his throat about that was drealmer7 (post #77), gogtrial34987 asked about it in post #94, but without being convinced it actually was scummy. Nobody else expressed any thoughts about it.

drealmer7 (post #116) is also the only one to find one more thing scummy about adaliabooks, namely a scum-indicative (to drealmer7) shift between adaliabooks' posts #59, #67 and #69.

Perhaps I've missed something, or maybe we're reading things completely differently, so could you point out specific posts that demonstrate who these "people" are and where they said that adaliabooks is scummy for saying what he did?


Also, I've asked for your reasons for listing people in the order you did in your post here, and would appreciate a reply.



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Hunter65536: Yep that's what I said those were the reasons he thinks you were scummy, kinda misread trent's post hence my reply is a bit weird in retrospect. Maybe you're closer to neutral line because me and trent confirmed that you posted quickly after us and the chance of copying our picks was low. But still he did push that thing a bit more than it warranted and the way he is going after RW seems like he just wants a lynch.
I just did a reread on GammaEmerald, but somehow failed to find where he said anything along the lines of "HSL going after drealmer and misquoted part by drealmer about adalia", let alone state that these are reasons he thinks I'm scummy.

And the more I think about it, that last bit "misquoted part by drealmer about adalia" makes absolutely zero sense as a scum point for me, if it's one to begin with. The way you phrased it, I'm not even an involved party, so why on earth would anyone count that as a scum-ping against me?

I'd really like you to point to posts supporting what you said, as frankly, the more you explain yourself the less I can follow you.
Posted March 07, 2017
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GammaEmerald: People seemed to be finding his "I'm most likely to be scum" talk scummy, which it's not. It's pretty much null to me since it's just talking statistics. Not really sure on the rest but I remember that clearly.
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HypersomniacLive: I just did a reread on people's posts in regards to adaliabooks. The only one jumping at his throat about that was drealmer7 (post #77), gogtrial34987 asked about it in post #94, but without being convinced it actually was scummy. Nobody else expressed any thoughts about it.

drealmer7 (post #116) is also the only one to find one more thing scummy about adaliabooks, namely a scum-indicative (to drealmer7) shift between adaliabooks' posts #59, #67 and #69.

Perhaps I've missed something, or maybe we're reading things completely differently, so could you point out specific posts that demonstrate who these "people" are and where they said that adaliabooks is scummy for saying what he did?

Also, I've asked for your reasons for listing people in the order you did in your post here, and would appreciate a reply.
Responding to this actually helped me remember the other reason I thought people were "scumreading" adalia: the hidden scumlord conversation. I felt that if he was playing great as scum it would be incidental and more likely to be a result of his failings rather than a sign his failings were a ruse.

As for explaining the reads further, the answer is NO. I don't like telling scum how to look better to me. I might do a very bare bones explanation, but that's it.
Posted March 07, 2017
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gogtrial34987: Any particular town pings you could point out?
You had to ask for something that involves work didn't you? :P

There's nothing solid, just general feel. He (?) feels engaged with the game, I know people are pulling him up for not answering questions, but I like that he is at least acknowledging that he is has been asked them and will not be answering them (whether I agree with that or not). He seems to be quite present.
He gave picks (with reasons that made some sense) despite not really seeming to agree with the idea of doing so.
It's not major enough to say I believe he is town, but it's enough to say I don't think he's scum right now. Particularly as he cannot be scum if drealmer is.

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adaliabooks: [...] There are other things that concern me about Hyper, but as of now I don't think they are worth pursuing.
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HypersomniacLive: Do share, please. What are those other things that concern you?
Not yet, sorry.
Posted March 07, 2017
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gogtrial34987: @trent It seems to kinda be your modus operandi, but upon browsing through the thread a bit, it struck me how very little you've contributed so far. You haven't been absent, had a useful back-and-forth with drealmer, and asked some pointed questions - but you haven't really been putting yourself out there. And that also means I don't have any good hooks to base questions to you about, but I hope we can change that, because I'd really like to build trust in you early rather than reach another Smurfia ending, and for me that means I need something to work with!

For example, what are your thoughts on the way Gamma answers questions in general, and answered your specific question about the timing thing in particular?

And way at the beginning, you agreed with drealmer that it might be good not to start with revealing picks. You didn't feel very strongly about it, and as majority sentiment seemed to be for revealing asap, you became the first to do so. What I'm wondering is, now that Drealmer has said some more about this, including that his ideal scenario would've been a D2 reveal, do you still find yourself agreeing with him?

Finally: any early reads to share?
I was satisfied with Gamma's answer on Hyper, but he seems to avoid answering questions unless pointedly asked (sometimes more than once) and then when he does answer I have to read it a few times to discern exactly what he meant. Since I've never played with him before I have no idea if he's scum trying to avoid confrontation and needing time to gather his thoughts or if he's just that busy that he missed the questions or did not have time to get to them yet. I have him as an unknown for now.

I still think announcing the picks right out of the gate was too much WIFOM. It was inevitable that picks were going to be shared before the day was over because the knowledge we get from knowing them is going to be very beneficial later. I would have rather revealed later in the day because at that time we could have asked the people we most suspected to reveal their picks first. Revealing on Day 2 would have been a bad idea though because we would have lost information from whoever was lynched plus whoever the NK was, and that would have been a possible 4 combinations of pairs.

I don't do really like doing lists fo who I find to be town or scum, I find that if too many people see certain people as town then they tend to end of being NK'd. I would rather let scum try to decide who needs to be killed than make a list for them. But, if I find someone to be scummy I will be all over them. I have a few people I am keeping an eye on to see what they do and how they interact with others, but as of right now there's no one that just jumps out as scum for me.
Posted March 07, 2017
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gogtrial34987: @trent It seems to kinda be your modus operandi, but upon browsing through the thread a bit, it struck me how very little you've contributed so far. You haven't been absent, had a useful back-and-forth with drealmer, and asked some pointed questions - but you haven't really been putting yourself out there. And that also means I don't have any good hooks to base questions to you about, but I hope we can change that, because I'd really like to build trust in you early rather than reach another Smurfia ending, and for me that means I need something to work with!

For example, what are your thoughts on the way Gamma answers questions in general, and answered your specific question about the timing thing in particular?

And way at the beginning, you agreed with drealmer that it might be good not to start with revealing picks. You didn't feel very strongly about it, and as majority sentiment seemed to be for revealing asap, you became the first to do so. What I'm wondering is, now that Drealmer has said some more about this, including that his ideal scenario would've been a D2 reveal, do you still find yourself agreeing with him?

Finally: any early reads to share?
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trentonlf: I was satisfied with Gamma's answer on Hyper, but he seems to avoid answering questions unless pointedly asked (sometimes more than once) and then when he does answer I have to read it a few times to discern exactly what he meant. Since I've never played with him before I have no idea if he's scum trying to avoid confrontation and needing time to gather his thoughts or if he's just that busy that he missed the questions or did not have time to get to them yet. I have him as an unknown for now.

I still think announcing the picks right out of the gate was too much WIFOM. It was inevitable that picks were going to be shared before the day was over because the knowledge we get from knowing them is going to be very beneficial later. I would have rather revealed later in the day because at that time we could have asked the people we most suspected to reveal their picks first. Revealing on Day 2 would have been a bad idea though because we would have lost information from whoever was lynched plus whoever the NK was, and that would have been a possible 4 combinations of pairs.

I don't do really like doing lists fo who I find to be town or scum, I find that if too many people see certain people as town then they tend to end of being NK'd. I would rather let scum try to decide who needs to be killed than make a list for them. But, if I find someone to be scummy I will be all over them. I have a few people I am keeping an eye on to see what they do and how they interact with others, but as of right now there's no one that just jumps out as scum for me.
Are you daft? You started the reveal chain. Why are you complaining about it being too much WIFOM when it's your fault?
Posted March 07, 2017
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GammaEmerald: Are you daft? You started the reveal chain. Why are you complaining about it being too much WIFOM when it's your fault?
Because as I said when I revealed in post 26, Talking in circles about the merits of revealing or not will get us nowhere, all it was doing was creating WIFOM and WIFOM is what scum hide behind. The way it was looking we were going to talk on the merit of revealing for a few days and then finally someone would do it, and then we would spend another two or three days discussing who was scum because of the picks (like some have been doing already). So I decided to get it out of the way so we could move on from it and actually scum hunt.

And just an fyi, I was not complaining about it I was answering Gogtrial's questions on the matter. If I was complaining about it I would have made several posts about it before now and I would not have been the one to start the reveals.
Posted March 07, 2017
End of day - 3/6/17

Votecount
drealmer7 (2): adaliabooks, Lifthrasil
GammaEmerald (2): RWarehall, Hunter65536

Not Voting: drealmer7, GammaEmerald, gogtrial34987, HypersomiacLive, trentonlf

At L-3, drealmer7 and GammaEmerald are closest to being lynched.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by cristigale
Posted March 07, 2017
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HypersomniacLive: You seem to mistake my addressing all his "HSL scummy this, HSL scummy that, HSL scummy everything" for casting suspicion on and making a strong case against him.
No, actually I took more note of your first two posts. *did drealmer roll scum* in your very first post and *has drealmer7's scum-partner yet to show up in the scum-chat?* in your second post. That looks as if you were poking at drealmer from the very start - and that is something that scum might do, knowing how easily drealmer blows up, when he is poked, and digs himself deeper in. However, I have to grant you that your first post came after drealmer stated his reluctance to share picks. So there is at least some reason for your suspicion. It still feels quite early and it didn't have a RVS-playful feel to it. But since I agree to most of your points of suspicion on drealmer and none of your actions was entirely unfounded, you're not my top pick in spite of how early you poked drealmer. But you have to agree that, should drealmer turn out to be town, you suddenly look very, very bad! Because, I repeat, this early drealmer-poking might be a very reasonable scum strategy.

About drealmers modus operandi: the one where he was more mellow was the very last game. I suspected him, even mistakenly voted for him, but still he didn't attack me. For the other game, where he was scum and blew up in the face of my suspicion of him, I'll have to go back over the last games when I have the time.
But actually, he didn't attack me in this game either and his last post seems quite mellow and explanatory. But the problem is: it came after the post where I stated my observation, so he could have adapted. That's the problem with revealing your scum-tells publicly. Scum can adapt afterwards...

Now that's the big question: is drealmer town and I misread him - again? Or is he scum and just adapted to appear more town-like after I revealed what makes the difference between scum-drealmer and town-drealmer for me. Hmmm. I'm insecure now and since we aren't under any time pressure, I'll withdraw my vote for now to think about it. My suspicion list still stays like it is, so drealmer is not 'off the hook'. I just don't want to take the time to think and talk.

unvote drealmer
Posted March 07, 2017
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trentonlf: I was satisfied with Gamma's answer on Hyper, but he seems to avoid answering questions unless pointedly asked (sometimes more than once) and then when he does answer I have to read it a few times to discern exactly what he meant. Since I've never played with him before I have no idea if he's scum trying to avoid confrontation and needing time to gather his thoughts ...
...or talk with his scumbuddy to get advice. Don't forget that scum have a daychat in this game! (probably to balance the exclusion pair picking.)
Posted March 07, 2017
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GammaEmerald: As for the confusion, the one-half thing was a blind spot idea, so I didn't think about it much when I first saw it, I was just like "oh wow that's clever!" Now I know it's a bad idea.
FWIW, a very similar suggestion was made back on the mafiascum thread, too.

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gogtrial34987: Any particular town pings you could point out?
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adaliabooks: You had to ask for something that involves work didn't you? :P

There's nothing solid, just general feel. He (?) feels engaged with the game, I know people are pulling him up for not answering questions, but I like that he is at least acknowledging that he is has been asked them and will not be answering them (whether I agree with that or not).
Was there an instance of this happening upthread, beyond the post right above yours? If not, that couldn't have been in play yet when you mentioned getting town pings, and then your explanation for those is reduced to "feels engaged", which feels somewhat... shallow to me.

Also, you've mentioned that your scum game is "not exactly stellar". Since I haven't seen any of those games, could you describe shortly in what way(s) you were weak?
Posted March 07, 2017
I don't particularly recall Adalia's scum game being bad, but don't recall Adalia's last scum game either.
Posted March 07, 2017
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gogtrial34987: Was there an instance of this happening upthread, beyond the post right above yours? If not, that couldn't have been in play yet when you mentioned getting town pings, and then your explanation for those is reduced to "feels engaged", which feels somewhat... shallow to me.

Also, you've mentioned that your scum game is "not exactly stellar". Since I haven't seen any of those games, could you describe shortly in what way(s) you were weak?
What can I say, the impression I have of him through the game is generally town. Looking back I couldn't really pick out any specific moment that makes me say "That's very townie", he just seemed to answer posts and post in a way I consider town (volunteering his reasons for not wanting to share picks after I mentioned it was slightly suspicious, as opposed to drealmer waffling a load about how he felt it was a slippery slope and we should have waited without ever really explaining why that would have been better) and in my head I have him marked as leaning town.
Another big part of it is weighing up the option of him or drealmer too, knowing only one of them could possibly be scum, and the scales tip firmly in the favour of drealmer being scum.


Heh, I'm sure Hyper could give you the best run down, but it basically boils down to I'm pretty shit under pressure. I tend to flounder significantly as scum and struggle to maintain the right level of interaction with buddies (not too distant and not too chummy), and also have an aversion to bussing (statistically scums chances of winning decrease dramatically once numbers start dropping so I tend to over defend my buddies and end up seriously incriminating myself)
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionForum Mafia #46: Henchmen Hijinks(800 posts)(800 posts)
(800 posts)